Season 1: Episode 3 Transcript
So Many Questions
Lee Coffin:
Dateline. A campus near you. Read all about it. Press releases, articles, blogs, newsfeeds, rankings, books, tweets, posts, podcasts. The head spins and swims amid admissions updates. News, spin, lists, commentary, gossip. So much buzz, too much info. So many opinions. I'm here to help. I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth Dean of Admissions. Welcome to the Admission Beat.
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Inevitably, everywhere I go, people ask me questions. They're worried about what counts, how they get in, what should they do? And too many questions dominate this work. And I think they're almost magnified today because we aren't out and about as much as we used to be. And in my world, getting on an airplane was always the moment I'd say, "Oh boy, who's sitting next to me?" Because inevitably it was the parent of a high school student. And if per chance, we started to chat, there went my flight because I became a Q & A in the sky. So, this week we're thinking about so many questions. There are innumerable ways of asking the same question about the same year in year up topics. And we want to come to this and bring some clarity. So, this week we will tackle some of these perennial questions. Some of them are more current than others, but in our round table, we will hit questions head on. First, let's get to the newsroom with Charlotte Albright.
Welcome back to the Admission Beat newsroom. Charlotte Albright, my producer and journalist in her own right joins me to think about this week's headlines on the Admission Beat. Charlotte, what are you reading this week?
Charlotte Albright:
Well, I've been listening actually, Lee, because as you know, my background is in public radio. So, I perk my ears up when I heard WBUR in Boston report on what some people call "the varsity blues scandal." So, two parents in that scandal, people will probably have been following this, were actually convicted in the first trial of a college bribery, including a Massachusetts father. They were convicted of buying their kids' way into school as athletic recruits. In the first case to go to trial in this cheating scandal that embroiled a lot of prestigious universities across the country. So, it paints a poor picture of college admissions. And I'm sure you would like to change that picture a little bit.
Lee Coffin:
I would. And it's interesting the way you just teed this question up, because I have been saying for the last couple of years that this scandal is misnamed. You just characterize it as the college admissions scandal, but in fact, not a single college admission officer is part of the scandal. So, it happened on our turf, but it was not something admission officers in any of the places involved were complicit in this scheme. And without trying to be cheeky, it's really a parent scandal. And I think it speaks to the way some parents were so anxious about the outcome that they were trying to achieve, that they broke the law and created a scandal that reverberates all these years later through the admission landscape. As an admission officer, I was as stunned and shocked as anybody when the story first broke.
This is not something that I see on my watch. And it's not just my watch in New Hampshire, it's across my peer group. And that doesn't minimize the severity of what this story represents. But I would just like to reorient the fire away from the admission office. What it did do in my work was it alerted us to the need to be even more attentive to the ways in which the system could be manipulated. And I think on the athletic recruitment side of the scandal, what I did see where I work and what I've witnessed elsewhere was higher, tougher standards being put in place so that the work we do in that space is managed more deliberately than it already was. I don't want to suggest there was a lot of Swiss cheese there, but that's where I saw a tightening of the rules so that what we discovered was not replicated as we move forward.
Charlotte Albright:
The other headline of the last week or so was more of a trend story, but I was surprised at how much coverage it got. The Atlantic, the Wall Street Journal and The New York Times all wrote stories that sort of amounted to the idea of men giving up on college. So, for example, to quote the Atlantic, "American colleges and universities now enroll roughly six women for every four men." And this is the largest female-male gender gap in the history of higher education. And it's getting wider. That's getting a lot of tongues wagging. What's going there?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. It's not surprising that one, two, and then three national media outlets picked up the same story. I often see that happening where a topic hits and then it sprouts in a few different spaces before we move on to the next one. In some ways this story is one that I've witnessed for my whole career. Because I think if you dive into the liberal arts part of higher ed, there's been a gender imbalance for decades where it's a female majority moving through the pipeline, through the applicant pool. And then the conundrum on a campus is, if you're co-ed, to what degree are we trying to level the balance between people who identify as women and people who identify as men. And I think it's coming to the fore more dramatically now because this ratio has moved outside of the liberal arts and into the wider higher ed demographic.
And I honestly don't know why. I think back to when I was in public high school and I was one of a handful, five or fewer, boys who were in the honors track and kind of pointing towards college, quote-unquote, and that was striking to be one of three guys in AP biology. But I think what I saw in 1980, '81 is still true. That there are more high achieving young women in high schools. I think they just focus earlier and they continue to apply in numbers that outpace their male counterparts. And I think the broad, big question is does higher ed respond? Do you just let the campus represent that ratio as it is? Do you try and manage it through the admission process so there's parity? But in doing so, kind of invites the question, are we rebalancing the scale in favor of men? I don't think that's wise and nor do I think that's what we're doing, but that would be a remedy.
And then I think that the sub-story that's here is the relationship between gender and curriculum. There are imbalances as you move across the academic programs. STEM tends to be more male dominant. The humanities is more female and we try and cross-pollinate, but this issue is a real one and it is getting more pronounced.
Charlotte Albright:
But what it makes me think is that it's really up to parents in high schools now to make sure that both men and women are encouraged to go.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I think the other way I would like to see this story opened a bit more is is there the same gender split in suburbia and independent schools, or are we really talking about a gender dynamic in lower-income communities? And that is more urgent in my eyes. To what degree are kind of lower resource schools seeing this phenomenon and how do we intervene there? And as I say that, Charlotte, I have a nephew who started college and stopped and he's joined a bakery and he's really happy. And I said to him just the other day, he was wondering about, "Should I have gone to college?" You didn't need to go. This wasn't in your heart and you are making your way through the world really well.
Charlotte Albright:
Finally this week in the news, of course Facebook, as always, but even more so lately, has been in the news for not always promoting the most healthy kind of discourse perhaps in the interest of getting more clicks. So, there are parents I understand that have formed Facebook groups having to do with college admissions and all things college. What can you tell us about that?
Lee Coffin:
This was bubbling below my radar for a while. Last summer, I had an email from an incoming parent who said, "I'm the president of the Class of '24 Parent Facebook group." And I said, "Had no idea that that existed." And I wasn't looking for it. So, it's not that I was ignoring it. It just didn't occur to me that parents had organized themselves and were gathering on these sites to create community and in some ways kind of monitor what was happening on campus. I think there's this bigger question hiding here around college, and what's the role of a parent versus a student in the college dynamic. And I'm old enough now to remember going to college, getting dropped off. I called home once a week and saw them at the end of each term. There's a different dynamic happening now and I think social media has opened a pathway for parents to be part of the undergraduate experience in a way that is much more visible and engaged than what I remember.
My cautionary piece of advice to my parent friends who are in these groups is, is it social? Is it activism? Is it advocacy? Is it a PTA virtually? What's the organizing premise and where's the information coming from? So, as they continue to exist, I think the Facebook groups for parents are kind of an opportunity to be engaged in your child's undergraduate experience. But I think there's also an opportunity for people to go down a rabbit hole every once in a while that might have some information circulated that is inaccurate. And I think a dean, a president, might be invited in once in a while and say, "Hey, talk to us here." It's an example of the evolving infrastructure that surrounds American colleges right now. And as an administrator, I think we've been a little slower to realize that the parents are there and typing as a way of saying, "Let's talk."
Charlotte Albright:
Well, in all things college admissions, there are places to find accurate information. And so as in all news gathering, you have to be careful about misinformation and I'm sure people are now seeing that more on their radar as Facebook comes under the microscope.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. It's what's the source? Who said what and how accurate is it? I think is a good piece of advice where every nugget of info is not necessarily a tasty one to consume. How's that for a metaphor? When we come back, we'll have admission round table with Jennifer Simons from Bright Horizons' College Coach. Be right back.
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Welcome back. This week's round table features Jennifer Simons, senior manager at Bright Horizons' College Coach. And that's a corporate benefit college counseling service for families in a variety of workplaces. But more importantly, Jen and I have been colleagues and friends for longer than either one of us wants to count. Jen's a Wellesley alum who worked as an admission officer at Barnard. She was an admission colleague with me at Connecticut College for many years. Was the director of international admission at Tufts for over a decade and an expert in all things China, just to give her a plug, and left Tufts to go to Northeastern where she was the director of admissions recruitment for a couple years. And now she's at Bright Horizons. So, a really long and interesting resume that touches lots of different components of the admission space. Jen, welcome to the Admission Beat. So fun to have you here.
Jennifer Simons:
Thank you so much for having me, Lee. It's great to be here.
Lee Coffin:
Why don't we just start with Bright Horizons, just because it's an atypical kind of window into college admissions? Tell us a little bit about who you work with and what you do with them.
Jennifer Simons:
Yeah. Oh, it's great. I work on a team of about 35 former admissions directors and counselors and probably half as many former financial aid folks. Many people have heard of Bright Horizons through childcare centers and they have relationships with companies whereby they are able to offer benefits to the company employees. So, big companies like Microsoft and American Express and Goldman Sachs, and then small companies and law firms. Sort of regional places. And so they provide them with childcare benefits, but then they also have other benefits for sort of family care up to and including college admissions. Because as you said, college admissions is something that's on everybody's mind. And so we are able to speak with parents of high school students, and the nice thing is that we speak to families all over the country. If we speak to folks from American Express, we can speak to the administrative assistants to the VPs.
So, we speak to everyone in between and we speak to families with a really wide range of regional concerns and financial concerns. And so we get a pulse on really, I think, what's happening in the country more than I ever have in a single admissions job. And so you're a hundred percent right in that my job is to answer questions. So, absolutely there are a lot of questions, but we're able to work as a team to see the trends and what families are interested in. So, that's pretty much what I do every day.
Lee Coffin:
It's really interesting. So, are you almost like a tele counselor? People make appointments to check in with you about whatever's on their mind or worrying them. And I think you work with individual families say, "Okay, let me help you think about your search and how you explore and how you prepare an application." So, it's like full-service kind of resource.
Jennifer Simons:
Yeah, yeah. That is exactly right. We literally are. People will call. I have scheduled times. We all have scheduled times every day. And the nice thing is that because this is a work benefit, families are able to do this during their workday because their companies are sponsoring this. They're saying, "We want to make your lives easier."
Lee Coffin:
When the questions start flowing your way, what are people worrying about, asking about, thinking about? Do you see any pattern across the country?
Jennifer Simons:
Yes, absolutely. I mean the first thing is COVID related. Is the last two years have impacted us so greatly that I think that the most commonly asked questions are twofold. First of all, how is testing looked at? And then all the related sort of questions underneath that. Should my child take testing? Should they submit testing if they do take it? And then I would say second to that now are just the general COVID questions. My son or daughter missed an entire year of school. I'm always sort of interested in the parents that they acknowledge that they know that this is obviously a universal phenomenon, but they still, I think in their hearts, think that their kid is the only one that missed school or was remote for school or didn't have band recitals for a year or whatever.
So, the question of how do colleges look at pass-fail? How do colleges look at missed extracurricular opportunities? And then what sort of ties it all together in this not so neat little package is the intersection of the two. Right? So, you have kids that missed time. They missed a school year essentially, or they were pass-fail or whatever it looked like. It wasn't the same as it always has been. There weren't as many APs offers, however you want to approach that, coupled with the fact that now they don't have testing potentially. No testing and this weird, unusual year. What are colleges going to do? How do colleges look at this information? And there's no universal way. So, I get it. But what I also am frustrated by is I feel they don't always believe what we say.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and I think that's true if you're an admission officer, if you're a college counselor, if you're anyone trying to be reassuring. There seems to always be a skeptical, "Can that really be true?" But let's go back to testing for a sec, because the tornado of testing is the thing that just keeps ripping through the neighborhood and throwing everything up in the air and everybody is suspicious about the end of it. Optional is not really optional first and foremost. And I catch myself saying you've got places that have always been optional and will continue to be optional. It's a structural part of their system. And then you have a bunch to places, like where I work, where we went optional in a public health crisis because it was the only way forward. You can't require something that is inaccessible. And maybe as we've journeyed through this, we've learned that maybe this should remain optional. But this interim period where we were in a required space, now we're not. Maybe we will or will not be in a couple years, but how do you try and calm someone down or give them a path to pursue?
Jennifer Simons:
Yeah. So, I think that my general advice is, and this is also different from what it was last year when you really couldn't take testing, but my feeling is that it's better to have testing than not. It's better to have the option of not using testing that you have than not being able to use testing that you don't have. So, proceed as you would now that you can take the SAT or ACT. Proceed as you would typically, and then we'll come to the end of this process and decide whether to use the testing or not.
Lee Coffin:
Well, that's exactly it. That question keeps coming up. If I don't submit, won't you assume the scores are low? A, I'm moving too quickly through my queue of thousands to stop on each one and say, "What was the logic behind this student's score choice?" I just take the decision on the individual basis and I move forward and it's like, "This person included testing. What does it tell me? This person did not. For whatever reason." Last year during the height of COVID, it was pretty easy to see kind of impact of pandemic in different communities. No one had testing in this town, this school, this broad part of the country, or around the world. Move on. And we'd look for other evidence that gave us the same kind of context of score word. But now, to your point, Jen, I think there are people who are able to find a test site, sit for an exam, whether it's the ACT or the SAT and just, as a tangent, do they count equally, Jen?
Jennifer Simons:
They sure do.
Lee Coffin:
Nobody believes that either. It's like, "No, they're interchangeable. It's like apple and apple. Take your pick."
Jennifer Simons:
Absolutely. Sometimes your testing is better than your transcript, relatively speaking. So, it might not be, quote-unquote, a high score for a college, but it might be a high score for you. It might be a really positive point in your application. Additionally, you might have relatively, quote-unquote, low scores, but they might be the best scores in your school district. Your school district scores might be deflated. So, a really smart admissions office will use the scores in the context from which they come. But like you said, Lee, if you don't have them, you don't have time to make assumptions about what they mean or what they don't mean.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And sometimes I did catch myself last year encountering a file without testing and thinking it's too bad it's not here because I think it could have provided important context for this candidacy. And I looked elsewhere for it. But there is a valuable role of testing in some files, but your point that you just made is one that I always remind parents. That we look at the scores in local context. So, if a local mean is on the SAT an 1100 and a student has a 1300, that is a lower mean than the Dartmouth mean, to use my institution as an example. But in the local context, that scores orbiting a different sun and it counts as an example of a high achiever on this testing front coming out of a place where people are not testing well. So, there's a degree of relativity, but testing particularly now has become kind of such an unendingly hot potato. So, Jen, as you moved out of a college university admission office, and you've been a college counselor, but you're now in this really heterogeneous role where people from all over the place are coming to, what are the biggest misconceptions parents bring to the conversation about college admissions? Where do you have to debunk more often than not?
Jennifer Simons:
So, what are the biggest myths, I think, on this side? That a student can do something to stand out so dramatically that we'll get them into a college even if they're otherwise unqualified. So, in other words, I get asked this question a lot, "What can my child do to stand out?" Well, what they could do to stand out basically starts in 9th grade, not in 12th grade, I think is kind of the crux of that. So, the other question, and it's not really a myth that I have to debunk, what are we missing in the application? Those are sort of two sides of the same coin. What can I do in 12th grade to really make myself stand out in a way that's going to get me accepted? And then the flip side of that, what haven't I done? That is a quick fix.
Lee Coffin:
I think to students, parents listening who have 9th and 10th graders, yes. The journey starts there. And it's cumulative. You don't jump into this conversation in 11th spring and say, "Okay, let's start to make our story." But the question I would get a lot when I would travel would be, "I want to join this organization because it looks good for college." And I'd say, "Stop. Everything and nothing looks good for college. It all depends on the sincerity of your involvement." And, as a reader, you see through that and you're like, "This doesn't really have a lot of depth to it." And this interest, which has been growing over time or might be newfound, but you are who you are and represent that through the file.
I think that's what I try and keep impressing upon people. Particularly now, when the volume has just surged so much. How are people responding to that, Jen? As the stories have come out over the past six months or so about explosive volume in some, but not all, quarters of college admission, but certainly in what you called the high profile spots. Are families seeing those headlines and digesting them with, well, it's a pandemic and people are overapplying. Or are they saying, "Oh my God, now I have to apply to 20 places too."
Jennifer Simons:
Families aren't as concerned about what's happening in the world necessarily. They're not concerned about what's happening in the United States. They're concerned about what's happening to the other students at Montclair High School.
Lee Coffin:
They're very local.
Jennifer Simons:
They're very local. So, yes, they see all these numbers, but they don't mean anything because they're so big. And they're told by the admissions officers, which is true, that they're not going to be compared to students applying from Indonesia. But they care about the other kids in their class that are applying and that have gotten in. And I hear again and again, you talk about myths, Dartmouth doesn't like our high school. And I tell them all the time, at times at Tufts when we would take every kid in a high school. There's nothing stopping us.
If there's an overall acceptance rate. But if kids are admissible, they're admissible, but they look at their peers and they try to strategize again. This person is applying early decision to this college so I shouldn't apply early decision there. I should apply early decision to this college because no one, except that this college doesn't like my school, which is of course not true, but that's where you get it. But the numbers I don't think scare people because they're so big it's almost like they're false. Do you know what I mean?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. It's hard for them to digest it. So, as we wrap up round table, what advice or thoughts do you have to the families who can't help themselves but to get lost in all these questions. And I ask that because you're kind of that person. I've known you for a long time and you are somebody who organically worries. You look for what if, so this is a very self-reflective. How can we help? What thought do you have? You talked to so many different people from all around the world and you said something to me recently about they do all get in. They share this desire to have their kids land in a good place that they can afford. That feels so earnest and fundamental. And that's what you see, I think.
Jennifer Simons:
Well, I even had a mother say to me the other time, "Oh, you'll see when your daughter goes through this." And I said to her, "I'm going to be honest with you. My husband and I both went to, quote-unquote, fancy schools. I've recruited at very selective places. I know a lot about different places. The biggest thing I've learned in 20 plus years in admissions and in the three years that I've been doing the job that I'm doing now is that most kids go." Like you said earlier to their state universities, and they're very happy. It's what you make of it. And so the secret, and whether you believe me or not, is making that list to make you feel good and find matches that are not just at the Dartmouth level of selectivity, but all the way up, that make you happy.
The secret, the thing that you have control over, is applying to appropriate places. And I've always said being happy at an institution has more to do with who your roommate is, whether you take advantage of the professors in your major, whether you get to know them, whether one captures your imagination. This whole idea of the fit and finding a fit that's appropriate. There are so many fabulous schools out there. That's what I've learned. It's really about the sort of making a match versus trying to fit yourself into a box that's not a good box for you. You're never going to feel happy about that. And you're certainly not going to feel happy when you go there. So, it's not a reflection on your child. Where they go to school is not a reflection on their ability, on who they are as a human being. What they do at that place, what they make of it and how they express themselves when they're there. But there are so many great places to go to school. That to have our mindset on these small 20 places that have to go to is crazy.
Lee Coffin:
Thanks, Jen, for this roundtable. When we come back, Jen's going to join me for Admissions Inbox. Stay tuned.
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Welcome back. So, Jen has introduced herself as the woman who fields all kinds of questions. So, I've got a set that our listeners have started to pose. So, Jen, are you ready for Admissions Inbox?
Jennifer Simons:
Let me have it.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. Lauren asks, any advice on not getting caught up in the rankings? My son and I don't know how to make our way through all these lists.
Jennifer Simons:
Just don't look at them. That's the first thing. That's the first thing. I think if I had to pick something about sort of COVID impacting the admissions process, that was very difficult, I think it made us shift from in-person visits to virtual visits. But now that you can do in-person visits, go to the colleges, see what you like about the culture of the place, the vibe of the place, the fit. I do think that COVID has empowered us to do virtual visits in a better way in that I have students reaching out to alums, to current students, trying to make the most of the resources they have. So, forget about the rankings. Talk to people that went to those schools, ask them what they liked about it. Don't look at US News. Don't look at the rankings. I do recommend things like the Fisk guide or certainly the college's blogs, and if they have student blogs that's great. Do the tours and information sessions. If you could get back out there and just say, can I picture myself at this school? And that's how you forget about the rankings. You forget about the rankings. That's not important.
Lee Coffin:
I think that's right. I've always been kind of puzzled by the invisibility of the inputs on the ranking. So, you look and say, "Okay, this place is number 11, or number 6, or number 44." But you don't really know what went into that number. And each ranking has a separate set of priorities that the magazine or the newspaper, whomever, has chosen to say here are the categories. We're going to weight them and come up one to whatever. You can do that as perspective applicants and parents. What criteria mattered to you in your search? Give it a weight, do your research, plug the data into your own scheme and say, "Okay, my list ranks the following." And number one on your list could be number 44 in US news and world report. You're right. It does not matter. But I agree. Just let the rankings go. Okay. Allie from Connecticut asks, do students have an advantage applying early? Or, said another way, is it seen as a negative if I do not apply early?
Jennifer Simons:
Oh, it's definitely not seen as a negative if you don't apply early. I do encourage my students, if possible, to apply early action. If that is an option, as it is at many schools. Let's even back this up, there are schools, there are colleges, that open their applications on a certain date and they have rolling admission. And it is an advantage to apply early to a place that is usually a large state university that starts accepting applications chronologically earlier. And they start filling their class. But no, it's not an advantage to apply early. I do like early action because if you have it, it gets you a decision earlier. And I find that there's something about when your friends are getting decisions and you haven't gotten one decision yet you feel like you're behind, even though you're not. I think the process has been so accelerated.
In terms of early decision, Lee, you could answer this better than anyone else. Dartmouth knows that they're going to get 10, 20, however many times the number of applications that they want and need to make a really strong class early decision or regular decision. It doesn't matter. Maybe there are some places that use it strategically, but I think you should just go ahead and ask the admissions officers if early decision makes a difference and they will tell you. But there's absolutely no reason. Again, you know what it is, Lee? It gets back to those assumptions. Will they assume if I apply regular decision that this wasn't my first choice? Will they assume that I don't like that? No, they don't assume. They're reading your applications.
Lee Coffin:
Right. And more people get in in March than in December by volume. But you're right. That's the second part of the question was, won't you assume it wasn't my first choice? No, and so what if we were? Things evolve. Your list shifts and what sounded good to you in October may not be true in April. And each round has its own dynamic to it. And for those of you thinking about applying early decision where it's binding, the key question is, is this the place above all others where you see yourself. And dipping into your international admissions background, Eliza asks, how does living in the UK affect my application to an American college? What things should I be thinking about that an American student might not need to think about?
Jennifer Simons:
A hundred percent, you're telling your story. I don't care if you live in the UK. I don't care if you live in Singapore. I don't care if you live in Brazil. This is your story. So, what I will encourage students abroad, whether they're Americans living abroad or non-US citizens, is to also understand that at most places you're applying to, there are going to be other students that are like you. You are not the only student that is applying from abroad. So, while you, as a human being, are special and unique and magical, you as a part of the admissions pool, you're not the only one that's applying from abroad. So, I think that you want to tell your story as specifically and precisely as you can and take the reader. And I would tell you this, whether you lived in Long Island or whether you lived in London.
Lee Coffin:
The admissions beat is full of a lot of noise and opinions. How do I filter out what's important?
Jennifer Simons:
I'm going to actually bring up my favorite supplemental question that you wrote for Tufts. There is a Quaker saying, "Let your life speak." Who are you? Now that I built it up, I can't remember the exact question, but it's who are you?
Lee Coffin:
The question was, "There's a Quaker saying, let your life speak. Describe the environment in which you were raised and how it's influenced the person you are today."
Jennifer Simons:
Who am I? You can get really existential about this. What is important to me? What makes me, me? What is so special about who I am that all of my friends know it. That I'm proud of it, or maybe you're not proud of it, but it's something that's essential. What is essential to my being? What am I taking with me on this journey? I think my best advice for any student is that this is the beginning. This is not the end of a journey. If you treat this like getting into college is the end of a journey you're missing out on this relationship that you're going to create with yourself for the rest of your life. So, ask yourself, who are you? Let your life speak, and speak proudly.
Lee Coffin:
Thank you, Jen Simons for joining us on the Admissions Beat and for, as always, bringing your effervescent insight into all the topics on our plate. It's good to see you.
Jennifer Simons:
Good to see you too. Thank you so much for having me.
Lee Coffin:
Of course. And that's it for this edition of the Admissions Beat. See you next week for another topic and more news. Till then, I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth college. Have a good week.