Season 6: Episode 4 Transcript
All-Star College Advising Team, Part I
Lee Coffin:
Live from Los Angeles, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's vice president for admissions and financial aid, and this is Admissions Beat.
We are coming to you live from the National Association for College Admission Counseling annual meeting, where thousands of us from all around the United States and around the world come together for a chat fest this year in LA to talk about admissions policy, procedures, and a little schmoozing in the hallways.
And Jacques Steinberg, my recurring co-host and I, have gathered some frequent visitors to Admissions Beat for what we're calling the All-Star College Counseling Lineup, to think about some topics that are keeping us occupied as we gather in LA, and to help our audience think about issues that are on your minds as the college search plays out in a senior year or junior.
So, when we come back, we will meet our recurring and new friends and have a lively conversation about all things admissions. We'll be right back.
(Music)
Jacques and I are really excited. Jacques, Hello.
Jacques Steinberg:
Hello, Lee. It is so great to be live from Los Angeles.
And just for listeners, if you can imagine being in the room with us, imagine a long rectangle as if it were in a high school counseling office, and yet, stocked with some of the smartest and most experienced people that Lee and I know in terms of people who've worked on the admissions side, people who've worked on the counseling side, people who've worked in nonprofits, all here to give you their best tips, seniors, juniors, parents and counselors on this process.
Lee Coffin:
To the quick head count, there's about 20 of us. Fourteen or 15 have been previous podders with us, couple of new people. We have the former president of the National Association of College Admission Counseling, which is Marcia Hunt from the Pine Crest School in Florida.
We have the former president of the New England Association of College Admission Counseling, Sherri Geller. I think we have... So, what I wanted... The question I wanted to start with as we kind of ponder college admission fall 2024, I catch myself saying the same thing on many episodes, where the topic shifts, but I often will remind the high school seniors and juniors and their parents that the fundamentals of college admission have not changed.
There are some variables that have moved around over the years, but the bedrock is not different than it was in the fall of 1990 when I started doing this for the first time. And I want to throw that out to you to see, am I saying something true? A bunch of you nodded as I said that.
So, what's the same? What can we reassure parents who are coming back into this for the first time since their own high school experiences, or the seniors and juniors who are looking around seeing some headlines and saying, this feels really itchy, and I get it, we'll talk about that. But fundamentally, the work we do is the work we've always done. Anybody want to comment on that?
Eileen Cunningham Feikens:
This is Eileen Cunningham Feikens, I work at the Dwight Englewood School in Englewood, New Jersey, and I also have had the great pleasure of working with Jacques and Lee on "The Process" on SiriusXM, which I have the great pleasure to co-host.
And the thing that strikes me as different is the massive amount of information. Back in the day, 1829, when I was an applicant, I had to write or call each college to secure one copy of their application. I had an entire range of whiteout in various pastel shades in case I made an error, right? So, the logistics of applying had been made so much more easy because of technology.
But with that, comes a greater level of responsibility on the part of the applicant to actually do more research, because there's no excuse not to. And that can be a little overwhelming, because you have to sort through, whether it's the university's website or other websites or blogs or podcasts.
And so, in order to kind of distill the essence of what they want in a college experience, I think that's a greater responsibility on the part of the student to be able to do that reflection.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So, information overload almost?
Ralph Figueroa:
Hello. This is Ralph Figueroa. I'm at Albuquerque Academy in New Mexico. And I agree with what Eileen is saying. I agree about the premise the process has not changed. It still needs to be about you, the student, and your story and what you want and your limitations and your expectations.
There's just a lot more noise, there's a lot more focus, there's a lot more social media and other media that makes it seem confusing and overwhelming, because there's so many things that seem to be coming at you at one time. Take a deep breath, it's going to be fine.
The vast majority of colleges in this country are still admitting the majority of students who apply. It's still going to be of straightforward opportunity for you to get into the college that fits you.
It's all in the margins and at the upper edges that it has gotten crazy and seems to be more hectic and more high stress, when, really, you need to focus back on you.
Marcia Hunt:
I'm Marcia Hunt from Pine Crest School in Fort Lauderdale, which is an independent school, but I worked at a diocesan Catholic school in Syracuse for a long time. I worked at Cheektowaga High School in Buffalo. I did my internship at Williamsville North, so I have been in a variety of different kinds of schools.
I'd like to piggyback onto the listening to the noise, because there's so much noise out there, whether it's coming from students talking to students, parents talking to parents, folks who are preying on the anxieties of students because there's so many products and services, there's a lot of real information out there, misinformation. It's really important to listen to your high school counselors, who are doing this day in and day out.
Like you, Eileen, I've been doing this for 144 years, and I have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the world. Also, students should keep this process as confidential as they can, and so should parents, and not be talking about where their child's applying over the cash register at Wegmans or the Publix to a whole array of people because that's really embarrassing for the child. Try to keep this to yourself, your counselor, and your parents.
Maria Morales-Kent:
My name is Maria Morales-Kent, and I'm the director of college counseling at the Thacher School, which is a boarding school in Ojai.
And before that, I worked at Occidental College. And before that, I actually worked at the University of Pennsylvania for a number of years. I landed there in 1984 as a brand new admission officer.
And here's the thing, I run a class at Thacher for students, and I have... One of my sections is called the History of Selective Admissions. And so, what I just want to add is to comment a little bit on Marcia's words regarding parents. Back in the '80s, the market was all about growth. And so, colleges and universities from the east coast who were seeing drop in population of college going students went west to find them.
And it was a market, it was all about growth. And the growth has occurred. And so, one of the reasons that I like to walk parents through this history and all of the reasons and all of the things that impacted the growth, the common application, the U.S. News & World Report, the oil issues in Texas that brought a lot of people west and to the southwest, all of that was about growth.
The growth has occurred, and so, now, we're in a place of volume. I think it's really important for parents to remember that, as you think about when you went to college and how easy it seemed to get into certain schools, you have to remember that we're in a different place now.
And I often worry that students will get that message from parents or grandparents, aunts or uncles, like, oh, just apply to that school, because you're going to get in because I got in. It's a very different time.
And along with all the noise and along with all the information, to underscore what Ralph has said, at the end of the day, you have to think about who you are, make this a time of reflection. Allow your list to change. Parents, don't get so caught up on brand. Think about who your child is. Think about the kinds of schools they've thrived in, the communities they've thrived in, and where they can now go that they're going to continue to thrive.
That's really at the core, and I think that that's what college counselors, regardless of the schools that you work in, that's what we focus on.
Jim Bock:
I'm Jim Bock, I'm vice president and dean of admissions at Swarthmore College, and I just want to echo some of the comments by my colleagues. And back to something that Eileen mentioned was the responsibility of students.
I can remember sitting in a Barnes & Nobles, and I couldn't afford the books on the shelf, but I could take them out, and take notes on the colleges. And what has shifted is the access to that information.
And so, I want to stress is that it's also still free. The important piece is getting good information. And as Marcia said, reach out to your counselors. But we recognize some of you don't have counselors, or the counselor load is 500 to one, and you can't get an appointment with that counselor.
So, you still have the freedom to look for this information. But some of the challenge, too, is choice, there's too much choice, and that can be paralyzing for the students. Where do I even start? But you need to start somewhere.
And so, again, back to what Ralph said, the acceptance rate is over about 65%. So, for many students, it's not a question of if they go to college, but where. Cost is another issue, which we might get to. But starting the process can be free. And so, anyone can do this from wherever you are and the access is also free.
Lee Coffin:
So, Jim, take that one step further. For a junior or even a senior who's looking at the calendar saying, uh-oh, I have to apply to college and I haven't done anything yet, how do they start?
Jim Bock:
Sure-
Lee Coffin:
Without the infrastructure of my school has a person or people who help me, like how does that at-large person find her way forward?
Jim Bock:
One place to look, again, is Big Futures. Whether you are a student who will be submitting tests or not submitting tests, you have access to that information when you sign on to some of these platforms to start searching for colleges for free at no cost, and you can just enter some information.
I want a big school, I want a small school. I'm from a rural community, but I'd like to attend a school in a big city. On the college board website is where you can find Big Futures to start searching for colleges. And you can search... Some schools might have Naviance, or other platforms that are free services to the students to start building a college list.
And I defer to others as well, particularly, the counselors in the room on what the good services are today, but there are free ways to do that.
Erica Rosales :
Hi. Erica Rosales, executive director of College Match. I'm also a first generation college graduate. I like to add that in.
I did work at Occidental College as an admission officer years back. And I've been in the Los Angeles Public School sphere my whole life because I'm a LAUSD high school graduate.
I always think back to my own journey and where did I start. Inspiration. Right? In my community, we had 900 people graduating in my class. I didn't have anybody who I knew who had gone to a college back east. I was very fortunate to have found Wellesley College, but it was because there was a speaker that came to our high school.
So, oftentimes, students, if you are at a big public high school, there are people who go back and give back of their time and commitment because they want to inspire young people. So, show up, show up to those sessions.
Back when I was doing this, the college access world was very limited, but nowadays, at least here in Los Angeles, there are a lot of different college access organizations. College Match is one of them. But there are many others.
ScholarMatch, College Track, Thrive, there are so many, there are many different Upward Bound programs. So, the key is getting plugged into one program, right? Not several programs. Because you want to make sure that you are getting good information that is targeted for you. That is really key.
And I just want to go back to something that Marcia said, because I just went through the college application process with my daughter. I think, sometimes, a lot of the noise does come from parents. And it was very interesting to go through this process with her. She goes to an independent... She graduated from an independent school here in Los Angeles. A lot of the stress comes from the parents.
And I know we mean well and we want to give our children the best, but sometimes, stepping back and allowing them to lead the process and trusting the professionals who, if you're fortunate to have those professionals, because, really, this industry is a one industry where I feel like I am an expert, but oftentimes, it feels like everybody else is the expert, because I give advice, and people don't take it. They'll take it from somebody else.
So, just wanted to add that in, parents. Relax, it'll be okay.
Chris Reeves :
Chris Reeves, from the Craft Academy in Morehead, Kentucky, also, of the Get Schooled by Reeves and Ford Podcast.
I've got something I tell my parents in my meetings, and it's all virtual because the kids are from all over Kentucky. But I'll say I'm going to ban, I'm going to ban this phrase, I heard. So, you can't start a sentence with I heard.
Lee Coffin:
I love that.
Chris Reeves :
And they kind of laugh a little bit, but it's the primary sources, the people who they need to reach out to.
We have a little fun with it, but I think it gets the point across. I hope it does, so...
Lee Coffin:
I heard. That's right. That is the boogeyman in a lot of... Those two little words. I heard. Sherri.
Sherri Geller :
This is Sherri Geller, co-director of college counseling at Gann Academy in Waltham, Massachusetts. And I also have worked in college admissions mostly at Brandeis University, and also, at Northeastern University.
And to go back to your original question, Lee, about things that haven't changed, something that hasn't changed that, I think, is very, very valuable is the importance of getting on a college campus.
And no matter where in the country you are, you can pick a school that you might love to go to, or one that you say you would never go to, but to just have that chance to walk around the campus and see what it feels like. Do you thrive when you're in a big city, or would you rather be in a more rural area?
If you think you'd rather be more rural, but you visit that big city school, it's a chance to see, is this really how I think, or to rule something in or out and to see what does it look like, and what is the community like, and how big is it and how long does it take to get there from your home? And some of those things for students who are just starting can be really, really valuable.
And I think that hasn't changed in many, many years, of, the importance of just experiencing college, rather than thinking of it as this idea or ideal, especially if you're fortunate to live relatively close to a college.
Jacques Steinberg:
Yeah. So, we've talked about students and we've talked about parents, and I think it would be helpful to our audience to think about what happens when those two forces come together, including at the kitchen table.
I'm wondering your best advice, all-star college counseling team assembled here, on helping parents and their kids sort of lower the temperature at their kitchen table in their homes around this process. What are some of the best advice you give to parents and kids?
Kent Rinehart:
So, my name is Kent Rinehart. I am dean of admission at Marist College in New York. I actually just went through the process with my son. And a fine colleague gave me a piece of advice and it kept the peace in our family, is that we chose one night a week that we would talk about college.
And so, that was... For my son, it was Monday night, and he wanted to make sure the conversation was done before Monday night football. But that was the opportunity for my wife and I to ask questions, find out how things were going, did he keep working on the essay?
And it made the rest of the week better, because he didn't have to come to the dinner table and worry that he was going to get peppered with questions. He didn't love Mondays necessarily, but it made Tuesday through Sunday much nicer.
Lee Coffin:
What's the source of this parent angst though? In my note, show notes, I wrote Parent Zen. So, we came to this topic on our own, but why are they so angsty about this?
Eileen Cunningham Feikens:
Eileen...
Lee Coffin:
Eileen. Yeah.
Eileen Cunningham Feikens:
... Cunningham Feikens again. I went through this process with my own two children several years ago. Although they were raised in the same household and they're only 12 months apart, they could not be more different.
And it was an incredibly-humbling experience, and I kept taking a step back saying, "Well, what do you think?" Right? "What do you think?" I think where it comes in for parents is they see their children and this process as some reflection. Certainly, their children, but this process, a reflection of their own success as parents.
We all know we want better for our children. Right? We all project and we want great goals for them. Where the friction occurs is the communication, and is it the parent's goal, or is it the student's goal? And there can be some real differences.
Jacques, in your book, The College Conversation, you've got this great exercise where a child takes an index card and the parent takes an index card, and they go to two different places in the house, and they write down what they want in the college experience. And then, they come back and compare notes.
I think it's crucial to set those boundaries a little bit, and to make sure that, as a parent, we not applying to college, the child is applying to college.
Ralph Figueroa:
This is Ralph Figueroa again. Albuquerque Academy. When I introduced myself, I neglected to mention that I, too, have an admissions background, also with Occidental College, my first institution, and then, Wesleyan University in Connecticut.
Want to touch on a couple of things. The setting a night of the week for parents and students to have a conversation. A lot of us in the room nodded, and I think a lot of us use that same advice for our family. So, that is a great one, Kent, to remember.
But going back to what's driving this, as a school, at Albuquerque Academy, we were asked to read a book called The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, H-A-I-D-T. It really was a very convincing study of why children born at a certain time whose lives were taken over at a certain age by social media were changed completely and their brains were changed completely.
But I don't think they're the only ones. I think that all of us sort of have been under the pressure that social media and the constant stream of information, good, bad, from far left field, from outer space, who knows, it's all coming at the same time, and that has impacted this process very strongly.
And I think that's a really big reason behind the anxiety that we see our parents having. Because they are all seeing this social media phenomenon take over their brains and take over their lives, too.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Kim Jackson:
Hi. Kim Jackson. I'm the director of advising & scholar support for the Lenfest Scholars Foundation, which is a community-based organization that helps rural students from Pennsylvania get to and through college.
My background is I started out in higher ed in student affairs, and then, I was a high school counselor at a suburban public high school for 15 and a half years. So, I feel like I've seen all sides of this, and a parent who has three daughters who are very, very different, and I think that's one of the things that parents, sometimes, don't see their children as they should, like they need to see them as they are and meet them where they are.
And I think it's really important to have consistent, and you talked about that, we're having a weekly conversation, but consistent and candid conversations about the process.
I see a lot of parents with their heads in the sand and their child chooses a school, and maybe, they've gotten into several, but they choose a school that really isn't financially-feasible for them and they don't want to tell them. Sometimes, they want us to tell them, or they don't want to have that conversation.
So, I think early in the process, it's really important. I'm surprised at the parents who don't do any homework about how much college costs. I mean, I have people that are professionals that... I expect that, sometimes, from first-gen. I'm a first-gen student as well. I filled out the FAFSA on paper for my parents, and just asked them the questions. But I'm shocked at parents that say, "How much is this going to cost?" "Why is this, even with some scholarship money, I still have to pay money?"
And so, just really doing a little bit of work in looking at the colleges that their student is looking at. I told my daughter, in the end, sweetie, we're going to choose a diverse list. We are going to get you someplace that you fit. But in the end, we have to look at the money, because that's the reality, so...
Dino Koff:
This is Dino Koff. I work in financial aid at Dartmouth College. I always talk about financial feasibility when families are looking at colleges and juniors and seniors early in the process. I have a slide that, when I'm giving talks, talks about we got to look at academic programs. If you want to be a French teacher, going to an engineering school is probably not going to work.
We need to look at social settings, and, do we want big? Do we want small? Do we want rural? Do we want metropolitan? Greek? Clubs? All that stuff. But the other bullet that comes up is financial feasibility, and that's what I spend the most time on, obviously, of the presentation. And having that discussion of trying to find a school that fits all three of those bullets early on is really important.
All schools aren't going to hit all three bullets of academic, social setting, financial feasibility, but we need some to hit all of those to create, maybe, there's some reach schools financially, but you know what? We're going to keep looking. And having those conversations with families is being able to say what is hitting this, and we put that on a spreadsheet to say, this is hitting all three things. And this isn't.
So, what are we going to do if this is a financial reach, and having that conversation, because if it doesn't happen, that conversation, Kim, that you're talking about early enough, there's a lot of tears that happen, where you think it's a dream school, but it doesn't have the financial feasibility.
Jacques Steinberg:
So, can we stay on that point of financial feasibility for a moment, with you Dino, for many families, this may be the first conversation that they'd ever had with their child about money. It may be the first time they talked about what their salaries were, what their savings were, what portion of those savings were they hoping to, or planning to devote to college. What's their tolerance for taking on loans?
What's your best advice on starting that conversation for the first time? What's your icebreaker? How do you get it going?
Dino Koff:
So, I think the conversation... From the college side, when we're out and about giving talks across the country, or actually, globally, is just making sure people understand what is the cost to you, not what is the cost of the college.
So, we constantly are talking about net price first. Like what is it going to cost the family? And for students to understand if it is going to cost $30,000, trying to explain how do we pay 30,000 if you're that family member.
And one of the ways we talk about this is, first of all, every school, obviously, accepting federal funds is going to have a net price calculator. Obviously, that's not the easiest thing to fill out, but colleges are willing to do... Many colleges, most colleges will do it on Zoom with families. And just to make sure it's being done correctly and everything's being inputted correctly.
Because when we talk about money... When we talk about income, when we talk about taxes, I mean, it's a whole new world. But the biggest thing is trying to explain, for example, a loan. And having somebody say, I'm going to take out a loan for $12,000, and it's going to be $300 a month, and talking to the whole family, the student, what would we rather do with $300? Can we incorporate $300 a month in our family budget?
We're extremely lucky at the school at Dartmouth, for example, meeting a hundred percent of demonstrated need. But there are schools where, we have families saying, my kid wants to go to this school. We're going to just take out a loan.
But having that next conversation of, we can do this as a family, or we can send you to this school and eat ramen noodles. And that's part of that discussion that has to happen early on, and there may be tears, but over time, it will be a better understanding and an easier transition.
Maria Morales-Kent:
So, this is Maria Morales-Kent again from the Thacher School.
And a couple of things I just want to focus on. One is, I think that it's really important, as we've all said, to have this conversation at the very start of the process. Because I think that the tears come most often, in my experience, when a student has gotten into a school that they've decided it's their dream school. And now, at that point, we're talking spring of senior year, the news is coming that we can't afford that school.
And so, I always tell parents... So, I start to work with parents at Thacher in their junior year, and I say to them, this is the time for you to sit down and talk to your kids about the cost of college, and how much you've saved for college yourselves, like how you put some money away. This is the time to talk about you as a family.
So, if there are multiple siblings, the fact that we want to make sure that all of you have an opportunity to attend college, and we will do all that we can to help all of you attend college. And again, I am, too, a first generation person. I filled out the FAFSA for my mother as well.
But I will tell you, on a really personal level, I have two children, two, brother and sister, and when I sat down with them to talk about it, it was when Timothy was going to start the process, Hannah was dragged into it. And I talked to them, and I want to just say, I think kids understand. It was like Timothy suddenly realized my decisions are going to have an impact on Hannah. And Hannah understood that as well as for him.
So, all the way through, we were really open and honest about how we were going to apply, what it meant relative to loans, all of those things. He actually never used the word dream and neither did she. They were looking at options. And I also think that, part of the thing with parents is college is, for many parents, a reflection of their own success as Eileen said, but it really shouldn't be that. It really shouldn't be that.
College is a time and a place where students are going to go and continue down their path, and they're going to make all kinds of great decisions. And there are so many colleges out there, but unfortunately, a lot of the noise is about the hardest schools in the country to get into.
And so, that's what the parents focus on, because that whole notion of choice and having the best choices is so critical for them, and that's why they, then, say, we will do everything we can to get you to that place, including eating the ramen noodles.
So, I just think it's important to have that conversation really early.
Erica Rosales :
Yeah, I would agree with that, but the other population that I think about are the parents who are not as engaged in the process, who are very supportive of their children. I think about my own parents who only speak Spanish, and that is, they wanted me to go to college, but that they didn't understand what the process was like.
And that's what our 150 college-matched seniors right now, have parents who don't really understand the process. They will do everything it takes to make sure their children get there. But the other part is they don't believe that a place like Dartmouth is accessible to them.
So, I don't know, I'm put you on the spot, Dino. I want you to talk a little bit more about demonstrated need. So, what does that really mean? Does it really mean, that if I need all of that money, right, all that tuition money and all that room and board, and maybe, a little bit more, because I do know the type of financial aid packages our students get, amazing. I mean, I'm talking about jackets, some stipends. What does it mean to be able to access, not just the education but that experience?
I think it's really important, if there are students out there listening to this, to know that this education is accessible for you, and you should apply.
Ralph Figueroa:
Before we put Dino on the spot, this is Ralph Figueroa. I want to, again, emphasize something that Maria just said, talking about her students, and how they understood the situation. They understood the explanation.
To all the parents out there, you think your students don't know about the financial realities. You think your students aren't thinking about that. They are worrying about it. They are thinking about it. It's on their minds.
You're not going to tell them something that they're not already thinking about. So, if you're hesitating to talk about this because you think they're not ready for this conversation, they are more than ready, and they really want to hear the information, and they really need to know exactly what your family situation is. I want encourage you parents to do that.
Now, we put Dino on the spot.
Dino Koff:
This is Dino Koff again from Dartmouth College. The one thing I'll say is, and we've been very lucky to work with College Match in LA here very closely. But there is such an amazing place for CBOs to help here, community-based organizations, because there's a lot of things that... Programming, we can do, but it's the one-on-one that really happens where, when we're working with families, we can fill out forms with families. We can help families.
But the bottom line is, it's making sure everybody understands ahead of time what does this look like. And I'm going to fill out this form, and what is it going to tell me? And I got an award offer from a college, what does it mean?
That's the importance of everybody in this room, and probably, everybody at this conference, is to be able to explain what the options are. Many states are coming up with rules, regulations for high school graduation, that you have to fill out a FAFSA, Free Application for Federal Student Aid, before you can graduate high school. That's a great rule, but... Well, first of all, the FAFSA has to work.
The second part of that is a better rule would be everybody has to fill out a net price calculator. And if you fill out a net price calculator, it will give everybody an idea of this is how much a school cost. Might not even be a school you're looking at, but somebody at that school, or a mentor, or somebody's helping somebody fill out, knowing that all of our schools have these calculators.
That will help explain what is needed. A college may say, you need $10,000. A family might say, I need $50,000. And it's trying to explain and making sure we're transparent enough that families understand how we came... We may disagree, but how did we come up with this figure.
Martha Denney:
Yeah. Hi. My name is Martha Denney. I'm the executive director of the Lenfest Scholars Foundation, colleague of Kim.
I wanted to further dig into that point a little bit, because we certainly have students we work with, mostly, the lower income students from south, central Pennsylvania, and many of them have that feeling, I can't possibly go to a Dartmouth or a Swarthmore or something like that, because it's $90,000 a year, and there's no way we can come up with that.
But we also have those who say, "Oh, they meet my full need. That means it's free". And that's, sometimes... When we try and explain demonstrated need, your demonstrated need might be, well, the expectation is that your family's coming up with $30,000. And that can be a hard realization.
I remember that myself. I've been in higher education for over 30 years. And when my daughter received her financial aid response from the institution she ultimately attended, my jaw dropped, because I can't afford that. It was completely unexpected. And I'm someone who's been in higher education for a really long time.
So, I think that idea of, there is an expectation that almost everybody will pay something.
Ronnie McKnight:
I'm Ronnie McKnight from the Paideia School, and I want to give a couple of practical advice, tips to families based upon what we were just talking about.
I agree that Big Futures is a great college search site, accessible to anyone. In that site, if you're a prospective student, you can search on the percentage of need met by an institution. And I wouldn't put a hundred percent, I'd put 80 or 90, which is really high, knowing that that's still a big chunk of the average student's need met. But it's a great way to find institutions that are resourced enough to be able to do that.
For many students, when cost is a factor, the easiest way to maintain diversity in their list of prospective colleges is to simply make sure that they're looking at some local public institutions as well. So, in addition to looking at schools all over the United States, all over the world, having some in-state options, I think, is very smart if cost is a big factor.
And then, just one thing about loans, because there are lots of well-resourced institutions in America that no longer ask their students to take out any loans, which is wonderful. But the norm in America is that a student that has need is going to be packaged with a loan, and that's very scary.
So, I have a lot of students that tell me that they want to go to college and borrow nothing. And if that works out, that's obviously ideal. But I'm always shocked that, in America, you'll go to a bank and borrow 30 or $40,000 for a new car, but you won't borrow 30 or $40,000 for your education, because as soon as you drive the car off the lot, it depreciates. But your education only appreciates for the rest of your life. And so, do you want to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars? Of course, not.
But if you borrow 20, 30, $40,000 for over a four-year period for your education, that is reasonable and can be repaid, and the same way that we pay back a car loan, and we do that all the time, so...
Lee Coffin:
It's been so... Oh, look, Ronnie got cheers from the crowd. It's been so interesting to witness this conversation unfold, because I said at the beginning, I don't know where we're going to go. And I don't know that I would've guessed financial aid and affordability would've been such a long run during this conversation.
But it kind of underscores for listeners that admissions and financial aid are inseparable. For many, many families, my own included, there was no college without a scholarship and financial aid. And to put an exclamation point on what Ronnie just said, I often thought of financial aid as the mortgage I was taking on my future, that when I borrowed, I was borrowing to invest in myself.
I think if you think of it that way, it changes the pain point a little bit, where you're like, all right, yes, I have to pay for this, it is expensive, but I'm leaning into my own purpose.
So, we're having a chatathon here in LA. It occurs to me that we have, not one, but two episodes live from Los Angeles. So, we will come back next week with part two of this wonderful conversation.
For now, this is Lee Coffin and Jacques Steinberg, saying, see you next week, and we'll be back with our all-star cast for round two of this conversation from the National Association for College Admission Counseling. See you next week.