Season 6: Episode 12 Transcript
Life in a Suburban Town
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's vice president for admissions and financial aid. And this is Admissions Beat.
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I am a son of suburbia and specifically I am a son of suburban Connecticut. I grew up in a small town in the broad suburbs of New York City between New Haven and New York. And I've often pondered how my suburban roots at a high school that sent about 50% to a four-year college informs my work as an admission officer. And I've always thought suburbia shaped me as a kid. It's guided my work as an admission officer for the past 30 years. It gives me a way of reading my fellow suburbanites as they make their way into the applicant pools where I've worked. And I thought, let's have a conversation with a group of colleagues who work in the various schools I attended.
So this week we have some suburban chatter, welcoming four counselors from public high schools in Southern Connecticut who will think with me about the issues and the vibe that swirls around senior classes in suburban America at this time of year. So when we come back, we'll meet our four guests and dive into all things suburban. Be right back.
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So …four friends. Truth in advertising, I am a member of their admissions advisory panel. We meet a couple times a year. And with a group of my peers from the college admissions side, we talk about whatever's on their mind. So I'm going to turn the tables and they're going to do most of the talking today. But I'm going to ask them each to say hello, introduce themselves and their school, and then we'll get going. So I'll start alphabetically with Jill LaPlant.
Jill LaPlant:
Hi, I'm Jill LaPlant. I'm the director of Counseling Services for the Amity Regional School District in Woodbridge, Connecticut.
Lee Coffin:
And how many seniors at Amity?
Jill LaPlant:
This year's class is 330.
Lee Coffin:
330. And about how many of them plan to go to a four-year college?
Jill LaPlant:
So last year's class was about 87% to a four-year.
Lee Coffin:
So almost all of them. Okay. Thanks, Jill. Hi, Vanessa.
Vanessa Montorsi:
Hi, I am Vanessa Montorsi. I'm the director of Pupil Services and Counseling at Fairfield Ludlowe High School in Fairfield, Connecticut. This year we have about 350 seniors, which is actually a little bit smaller than most years.
Lee Coffin:
Most of them will apply to or go to a four-year college?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, most of them will. Last year, about 97% of our students went to either a two or four-year school.
Lee Coffin:
That's a really remarkably big number for a public high school.
Vanessa Montorsi:
It's pretty significant.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Pamela Scott.
Pamela Scott:
Hello, I'm Pamela Scott. I'm the instructional leader at Wilton High School for the school counseling department. Our school's located in Wilton, Connecticut. We have about 304 seniors this year, our classes vary. And we had 98% last year of students going on to two and four-year colleges, so 96% four year.
Lee Coffin:
Wow. I mean, what's interesting already as we start this conversation is there are lots of public school districts around the country where nowhere near 90 plus percent are going to college. So we're already in rare air just by virtue of that. But let's say hi to Stacey.
Stacey Zwick:
Hi, I'm Stacey Zwick. I'm the director of School Counseling for Regional School District 15, which includes Middlebury and Southbury, Connecticut. Our high school is Pomperaug. And we have a senior class size this year of about 250 students. Our graduating class last year was also 93% going to two and four-year colleges with about 86, 87% of our students attending a four-year school.
Lee Coffin:
And Stacey, you're the most rural I would say of the four, although Wilton's not urban.
Pamela Scott:
No.
Lee Coffin:
But Pomperaug is a more rural school district. Is that fair?
Stacey Zwick:
That is very fair to say. We have our two towns. They're growing towns certainly, but they are quieter communities. They're what would've been known as bedroom communities. And we are lucky to have easy access to New York and to get to places, but we are pretty rural out here. That is certainly the truth.
Lee Coffin:
So let's start with just a open-ended question. So we're airing this episode in early December, so we're just back from Thanksgiving break. The deadlines are bubbling. I'm going to guess a lot of your seniors have applied somewhere early, whether it's action or early decision. You're all nodding as I say that. What's the vibe in your senior class right now?
Stacey Zwick:
I think the current vibe right now for our seniors, like you said, most of our students have applied for that November 1 or November 15 or even that October 15 deadline. We have many students who have put that deadline in. So right now there's almost equal parts relief in having that in and then anxiety about the next step. And now there's what you might call the calm before the storm, that quiet wait time before the next step.
Lee Coffin:
Is that true for the rest of you?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, I would definitely agree with Stacey, we're feeling the same. And for most of our kids, November 1st is the majority of their deadlines. And even the school counselors, I don't have a caseload, but the school counselors obviously do. And that was the date that was on everyone's calendar of like, "I need to get my letters of rec done before November 1st." It was really stressful leading up to that. And now it's like Stacey said, calm before the storm. We're kind of waiting to hear what's happening and now the kids are just tracking to see in SchooLinks what documents have been sent and uploaded or downloaded I should say, by the colleges to ensuring that their package is complete and they've done all the steps necessary to apply.
Lee Coffin:
I think as the two of you are sharing that insight from your senior classes, I think that probably surprises some listeners, especially some parents, that a majority of your seniors applied somewhere by November 1st. I don't think that was as true a decade ago as it is today. And so if you're the parent of a junior, here's a crystal ball into your not so distant future is, it seems like early action or early decision and early action has become more the norm than not in a suburban public high school. And Pamela or Jill, is that trend something you've seen accelerate or has that been true for a bit?
Jill LaPlant:
Yeah, that has definitely accelerated and that is a message that I think all of us on the panel have changed in our messaging to students, to juniors and to seniors. The number of students that we have applying early decision has skyrocketed from 10 years ago.
Pamela Scott:
I would agree. I think for a lot of students they feel that the earlier they can apply to a school, the better chances they have of getting in. Again, we do have a lot of students going early decision with that binding commitment and they're able to make that binding decision for themselves and their family. They believe that that is the way to get into some schools. So I think we have definitely seen a huge shift and that has caused us as counselors to go back to how we do planning and preparation for them because now we have to backward map everything.
And so we're talking earlier and earlier to students about their preparation process along the way for at least one of their schools because if one of the schools has an early deadline, they have to have their materials ready and as do the teachers that are writing their letters of rec and their counselors that are doing the recommendations and all the other work counselors do. So it's early for them and then it's also early for all of us as well.
Lee Coffin:
So the big push was October leading up to November 1st or 15th. We're a couple weeks past that. So you're all saying, "Whew." But one of you said calm before the storm, so let's talk a little bit about the storm. So we get past Thanksgiving, decisions start to come, describe that. For parents who have not been part of this before, what happens in your schools and on your social media as we move through the first couple of weeks of December?
Stacey Zwick:
This is Stacey from Pomperaug. The first thing that happens is the happiness at the first acceptance. And then what happens after that is inevitably almost everyone isn't going to get into somewhere that they wanted to get into. And so there is the balance of a level of disappointment versus the level of excitement. The third stage of that is always the decision piece.
The huge part of that is the social media piece, when everybody is seeing and posting "where I got in" and it's exciting and you want our kids to celebrate. We definitely want our kids to be proud of where they're heading, but we want everyone to be proud of everywhere that they're heading. One of the things we focus on at Pomperaug is having decision day just be decision day, not college decision day. What is the next step? What school are you going to? What work are you going to? Are you going into the armed forces? Are you going into a gap year program? And really making sure that you're celebrating what your decision is.
High school is an amazing accomplishment. It is quite a gauntlet to get through in four years. For our students, balancing that social media piece, especially in the Northeast where there are so many choices, so many options around that so many of our kids are applying to the same schools. And when it's the same schools, that puts a whole other layer in it when some kids are getting in and some aren't.
Lee Coffin:
So let's talk about that. So this idea that you've got on the college side, we call it a docket. So we'll have a docket of 5, 10, 20, sometimes 50 applicants from any one of your schools, because you're right, Stacey, lots of students who are high achieving and some who aren't even high achieving, apply to the same places to see what happens. And then you're also in the halls refereeing that emotional flotsam that comes from the decision. What happens at Amity, Jill? Is that intense?
Jill LaPlant:
Yes. We are seeing that more and more. We'll have clusters of kids who apply to the same institutions and it is mixed emotions because they are not all going to get in. The more kids who apply, the harder it is for the bigger group. So it is mixed emotion. Kids come in celebrating their accomplishments, wearing the shirts, being really super excited, and then there's kids who are not because they didn't get in.
Lee Coffin:
How do you counsel families to navigate this first set of decisions with good news mixed with disappointment?
Jill LaPlant:
I always try to reiterate to students and parents that a college application decision whether you're admitted or denied, should never impact your self-worth. And that goes both for parents and for students because I hear a lot of parents come back and say, "I should have done more. I should have pushed them to take higher classes, do more of the things." And the kids come through and say the same thing, "I should have done this." It isn't that simple and it does break my heart when they come back and they don't feel good enough. And that simply isn't true in college admissions because plenty of qualified students get denied.
Pamela Scott:
This is Pamela Scott from Wilton. I think the other piece is just having the balance between you want to aim high and apply to the colleges and what we've really focused on with our students is trying to find the right fit and the right match. And we talk about that a lot, but we try and define that for the students. I'm not sure who I stole this from, but I went to a NACAC Conference, a national conference for counselors and somebody said it's about finding the right fit or the right match and that it's not a prize to be won but a match or a fit to be made.
And I thought that really resonated with me and really important because we have students that when you are trying to find the right fit and the right match, maybe they didn't get into that college because it wasn't the right fit for them. And sometimes students just aren't taking the time or struggling to find where is my fit. And the more we can help them narrow their choices to what's right for them and also by doing that, increasing the number of schools that are out there that are hidden gems or schools that have what they're looking for to open the doors to colleges they've never heard of, that's really one of the goals we have at our school.
One of the things I've been really focused on for our department is that number of schools that our students are going to increasing every year because they're finding those hidden gems. They're finding schools they didn't know existed that are a perfect match for them versus just trying to throw darts at a board and applying to all these schools and a lot of them early just to hopefully get in. And I think it comes from fear, right? It's much more challenging to get into college this year. So many more people are applying. It's a really competitive environment.
And so I think balancing aiming high and also trying to find where your child or you as the student can thrive and be a part of the school and contribute to the community of the school. And that's really what we're all passionate about and that's what we're trying to do to help families. And sometimes that involves tough conversations to say, "Why is this school your dream school? Why the push for this school when it really doesn't match what you're telling me you want in a school?"
Jill LaPlant:
This is Jill again. So just to even sometimes look at that list that Pam is mentioning and we are also seeing an increase in the number of applications students are submitting that sometimes the list is very diverse. So it's what is the child looking for? These are very different schools, very different settings. They offer many different things. And trying to emphasize that fit piece because ultimately, and we know the research supports that students do best when they feel connected to their college or university and they can find the most success there.
Stacey Zwick:
I think as well, one of the things that is a shift with the early action and with the early decision and so much of this being moved earlier in the year, part of the increase in kids applying to college because we're seeing the same thing at Pomperaug, applying to 15, 20 schools, I wonder if part of that is because everything has moved so early, they're not feeling prepared. They're not sure what it is exactly that they're looking for because it's now so early.
The beginning of the school year is hectic. Maybe I didn't get to everywhere I wanted to visit in the spring or over the summer or maybe I don't have my essay exactly how I want it to be refined. So I'm just going to throw all of this out and see where I land and then make my decision later. And what we try to counsel our students is that's actually going to make it harder. It's going to be harder if you have 12 schools that you've been accepted to and you don't know what it is about those 12 schools that fit for you.
Possibly my best advice to parents, especially those junior parents that might be listening or even those sophomore parents that might be listening, is to try and just get on campuses a little bit more, get to places and learn a little bit more about that process. Talk to your school counselors, talk to your students about what they may be thinking of. You don't necessarily know what you need to major in. You don't necessarily need to know all those parts, but maybe start to narrow down what type of campus you want. Do you want a larger school or a smaller school? We are pretty isolated here at Pomperaug, do you want to get out to the big city or do you like this ruralness that we're in? And I think the more that students and families can educate themselves beforehand, that might help to alleviate some of that process.
Vanessa Montorsi:
This is Vanessa from Fairfield and I realize all four of our districts changed the platforms that we're utilizing with our families to a new platform. I don't know if I can use the name, but it's SchooLinks. And I think we did that to help educate our parents and our families and the students we work with to do that pre-work that you were talking about, Stacey, that you alluded to, Pam. Because doing that pre-work is going to really set the students up to succeed when they come junior year and they're starting to look at colleges.
And what I mean by that is looking at careers, what careers am I going to be looking at instead of name-dropping different schools, I want to go there because I want that bumper sticker on the back of my car. It's actually creating that pathway to determine the best fit. So when they get to junior year, they're looking at the application process and they have that pathway based on their interests, not based on the college's name.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, Vanessa, let's do a little promo for SchooLinks. So what is it?
Vanessa Montorsi:
So SchooLinks is a platform that really allows students and parents to go through a college and career search. It does anything from looking at colleges and it aligns the colleges with careers students want to go to. It's a platform that can filter out based on location, based on majors, do they have sports? It can look at financial scholarships. For me, what I really like about it, it does a lot of lesson plans of finding your own path, looking at careers that align with your personality. It matches all of that stuff up. The student's potentially interested in where they want to go. And it just doesn't have to be college, it could be tech schools or any other degrees really.
Pamela Scott:
The one thing I was just going to say, I do a lot of work in, I have a 9th grade transition class that I teach and one of the things I like at SchooLinks is they have a lot of things that 9th graders can do and 10th graders that maybe they're not ready for the college search process yet, but they can do some interest inventories, learn more about themselves, learn about their strengths, learn about the things that make them who they are. And then okay, this is what I'm good at, this is what I like, these are things I don't like, and then to Vanessa's point, what maybe career or career pathway.
We're no longer asking them, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" We want to say, "What are you good at? What do you like? What are you passionate about and what do you care about? And then follow that in your clubs and activities in school. Don't try and figure out what do the colleges want, do what you're passionate about. Follow that because that's what they do want. And that will make it your authentic self and then you can really speak to who you are to the schools you're applying to."
And so they have a lot of different levels actually down, even K through 12 programming that you can do. So you're doing those building blocks early on and then getting to the place. I always get nervous when I have someone from the elementary school worrying about where their child's going to college or what kind of classes they're taking. And that's a reality of the world that we live in, where we are here in Connecticut with our schools. And so helping build those building blocks and say, "Right now, this is your job. Understand who you are as a learner, what you're good at, what you like, what you're passionate about, and then we'll build from there."
Lee Coffin:
So you just said something that brought me to an article I just read this weekend that David Brooks from The New York Times wrote in The Atlantic and it's called "How the Ivy League Broke America." The meritocracy isn't working. We need something new. It's a really long essay, but thought-provoking. But what made me think of it at this moment is I highlighted this section that syncs up with what Pamela was just saying, quote, "Family life changed as parents tried to produce the sort of children who could get into selective colleges."
And it said, according to some research from a sociologist, it talked about natural growth parenting, letting kids be kids, allowing them to wander and explore. And that's more true for families from more blue collar working class backgrounds versus college educated parents in contrast practice concerted cultivation, ferrying their kids from one supervised skill-building, resume-enhancing activity to another. And it says, "It turns out that if you put parents in a highly competitive status race, they will go completely bonkers trying to hone their kids into little avatars of success." So does that sound like your community?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Absolutely. When I have parents raise their hand at a junior parent night saying, "Can I write my kid's letter of recommendation?" Absolutely not. You can't do that. I think you're a little biased as to how you're going to write towards your child's application.
Lee Coffin:
So let's talk to the parents right now. That passage from the Brooks essay rang true for all four of you, and I understood it even from the college side. How do we help suburban parents take a breath?
Pamela Scott:
Well, that's the first thing, take a breath. Because what we constantly tell our students and families is we've been through this many of us for many years, maybe some of us even decades, this is what we've been doing, this is what we're passionate about and it's going to be okay and it all works out in the end. There is a place for every child and for some students, it may not even be college, it could be a gap year, it could be the military, it could be trade school, it could be community college, it could be all these other wonderful options that are out there.
So that's the first thing I would say is to take a breath and then also to remind yourself and your child that this is about you and your family and what's right for you. The rumors that are out there, the things you hear at the weekend gatherings and the rumors that you hear about what's going on in colleges and things like that, you have to filter all of that out and really think about what's right for my child. And it can be very overwhelming again, there's so much information out there on what's true and what's not true.
So I know all of our programs at our schools really try to help, step-by-step, walk everybody through this with as much support as they need. Some families have been through this two or three times with their older siblings and so they've got it, they've got their plan, they know how it works. But I think a lot of reassurance to say it's going to be okay, that students end up where they're supposed to be. That school that maybe you were clawing and scraping to get into, maybe you didn't get in because it wasn't the right fit. And most of the time it's not. The kids that get into the schools usually aren't clawing and scraping in.
And so I think the reassurance that we can, as many times as we can, say, "It's going to be okay. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. There's a place for every student. We will help you get there." If you listen to some of the things that you're hearing in webinars, listen to the college representatives, listen to the people that know what they're looking for and what they're asking you to do and follow the steps that you should. Listen to, hopefully, your school counselors that are giving you good advice. Really try and filter out the noise and do what's best for your child. And I think that's really important.
And also to be very excited and proud of wherever your child wants to be. There's a lot of great schools out there across the board that have amazing programs that people may not have heard of. And then there's some amazing colleges that everybody's heard of that have great programs. We have a great UConn, a state school right here in UConn. We're so fortunate to have it and they have amazing offerings for our students.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, it's almost like a challenge of your work in the school districts you represent is that you have families that are educated, if not highly educated. They come into this conversation with more information than my parents did when I applied. My hypothesis is sometimes that information or that perception of information gets in the way, that they almost know too much.
Stacey Zwick:
And I think too, a couple of the things to just think about and reflect on and try and slow down on is when you're a parent trying to get your child through this and yourself through this process, it is a different process from when you went through it. Even if you went through it 10 years ago, 5 years ago, it's a different process. Finding the right fit and finding that place where you're going to have the best experience and get the best for yourself and your future, I think is the most important part.
And I tell this story often to students when they don't get into that school they were dreaming of, that favorite place that they knew was going to be the right place for them. I say to them, "Okay, do you want to go to that school eventually? Is that where you want to go? Because not getting directly admitted your freshman year doesn't mean you can never go there. You can transfer there. You can look for grad school there. There's different ways to eventually get on that campus."
I've been in education for 28 years. I've been in this current position for 10 years and in all the years that I dealt with students that were desperate to get into that school and were saying to me, "Okay, I'm going to go to this school for one year and then I'm going to transfer. That's where I want to be. That's absolutely the right place for me," I've had one student do that, just one in all that time.
Lee Coffin:
Stacey Zwick:
Absolutely. They get to where they are and they fall in love and that's exactly where they wanted to land. So they wind up in the right place. And even when that opportunity that just one year ago, just 12 months prior was the end all, be all of the place they had to be, one year later, suddenly they would never leave where they are.
Lee Coffin:
I also think it's this chase for the prestige of the outcome that gets in the way. And we've talked about this on many of the episodes where fit gets tackled by name brand without people realizing that's what's happening. It just seems like I have to go there because, fill in the blank, is the best. And Vanessa, you're sighing and nodding as I say that.
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, no, it's definitely true. We live it here in Fairfield. I think I am happy to say though, over at least the last couple years, and hopefully my counterparts can say the same thing, we are seeing people that are a little more open-minded. They're looking at other opportunities because now community college is free. So those that can't afford a really hefty price tag, they're looking at other options.
We are seeing more students go into gap years or looking at gap years. We're seeing students now apply overseas to European schools, which is amazing because a lot of those programs are only three years, they're not four years. So our students and parents are becoming a little more financially savvy. So I am thankful that we are seeing the pendulum swing the other way a little bit more, and they are becoming open-minded for the other opportunities out there.
Lee Coffin:
What I hear you saying to both seniors as they finalize their lists and juniors as we come around the holiday bend and start doing this primetime with them is keep your list balanced and keep yourself open to options that might not be top of mind right now. I think some of the frenzy that we manage is about scarcity, but scarcity only exists in a tiny number of places. I work at one of those places. But the huge majority of institutions aren't being as precise as I must be. And so the opportunity, parents, is think about the options that have value and have excellence, that have entry points that aren't quite as highly differentiating as some of the places we work.
There was another essay that came out that I saved from last March. It was published on Ivy Day, a phrase I hate, but for listeners, that's the day in March when all eight Ivy League institutions release their decisions concurrently. And this essay came out in The New York Times the day after and it said, "Elite college admissions have turned students into brands." The idea of it is that students have to stand out in order to get admission to this part of the spectrum that's scarce.
Now you have students who are all jamming into the pools that are scarce. What counsel do you have for them about standing out versus being themselves, which I think Stacey was talking about authenticity earlier. How do you reorient them from this idea that's online? I mean, there are online seminars that teach students how to brand themselves. You will be the, fill in the blank, swimmer who, fill in the blank, as opposed to be you. How do you have that conversation with ambitious students and their parents?
Pamela Scott:
Lee, I'd love to jump on this.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Pamela Scott:
This is Pamela from Wilton. And the reason is just because I just taught a class, one of my classes that I teach, and it was about developing your personal brand. And we literally talked about how do you brand yourself in the sense of what do you value? Again, I go back to what are you passionate about, what do you value? Who are you as a person and what is your personal brand? And that's exactly what our lesson was about.
I asked them to basically choose a word that describes you and then think about that word and then explain why, why is that word important to you? What word do you think for you will mean future success for you? Or how would you want to be seen by others? How do you think other people see you? And then do they really see you with the brand that you think you're putting forward? And that was trying to get 9th graders to think about what they're putting out there of who they are and how they branded themselves. And I use that term very loosely in the meaning that we're speaking to.
And I think what was really important is to think about that and think about what you're passionate about, who you are, and making sure that who you are and who you want to be is the message you're sending out there. And so again, going back to how do you stand out, you follow your passion. You follow what you're interested in, what you're good at, what you care about. That could be research, that could be an activity, an extracurricular. That could be something that you're not involved in at school at all, it's something you do on the side. Maybe you're a coin collector, maybe you knit, whatever it may be, but bringing that to life in some way.
And I think a lot of times when students say stand out, they feel that they have to have the laundry list of the 17 clubs they're a part of and that they have to be president of every club and overly involved. And I tell my students, "There's a list of 10 activities, I'd love it to be three or four. And really, what are you really passionate and you care about? That represents who you are and that's how you stand out is you're true to yourself. And then really engage in the things and the activities that relate to that passion for you." I think that's how students stand out and that's really important.
Lee Coffin:
As I'm reading files right now for early decision, I look at that extracurricular section. I'm looking for consistency, I'm looking for depth, and then the thing you love to do. When I was in high school, I loved drama and I loved being the editor of the newspaper. I did other things, but those, if you wound me backwards and said, okay, senior in high school, Lee, I said those were the two that if everything else fell away, I would never have stopped doing journalism and drama. That's what we're trying to get at.
And Jill, I'm thinking about your school district is in the backyard of Yale. So you've got a lot of families who are professors at Yale. Kids have access to Yale in all sorts of interesting ways, whether it's research or internships or fill in the blank. That's not atypical around suburban US. Share some thoughts there.
Jill LaPlant:
Yeah, we are in Yale's backyard and many of our students do actually do some science research through a unique program that we have here at Yale and many of their parents work there or are doctors there. I think I love to hear what Pam is doing on the branding and getting kids to really have that be an opportunity for growth where they're really learning about themselves. And I think there's a difference between branding who you are as yourself and branding someone that you aren't. So they get in under this branding and we do know that there are consultants out there who we can pay lots of money, who can do all of the things to help kids get in, but at the end of the day, they have to then be that person on that campus and maybe that doesn't make them a good fit.
I worry about that message that also sends them that you aren't enough, so we have to do all of these things to try to make you get admission. And I liked what you said before, Lee, about prestige or just because the school is well known, that doesn't make it a good fit. We're educating kids about all different topics and courses here in school, but then there's also that component of learning of who they are and what they like and what they don't like and what they're good at and career exploration because the end goal of this whole process is not just getting admitted into a school. You have to graduate from that school hopefully in four years and get a career. So those are important things too, that we need to make sure parents hear.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, it's interesting because career has come up multiple times from each of you and it's something that gets lost a bit in the college admissions story. Again, I thought I was going to be on the CBS evening news. You asked senior in high school, Lee, I would've said, "I'm going to be a journalist." And I've joked that the podcast got me as close to it as I'm ever going to get. And then I got to college, I saw other things open up and I've become a college administrator for 35 years, which has been fantastic and I could not have imagined that.
But I think inviting people even in this search process to think about what things might you be interested in, not just the pre-law, pre-med, pre-business. I read one today and the student's talking about art history and loving Spanish architecture and wanting to work in a museum and I thought, "That's really interesting." Now whether he does that or not, 4 or 5, 10 years from now, I don't care. But right now I thought, "I can see you joining us to study art history and being really excited by that. And maybe it leads you into museum curation, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you become a lawyer." But that animating interest is what we're trying to get at.
Pamela Scott:
And I think too, we have to remember the careers that exist today are going to be gone tomorrow in some fields of study. So when we talk about careers, again, I go back to, and this is Pam from Wilton, I'm not saying what do you want to be when you grow up? They may have an idea of that. They may say, I want to be an engineer or a doctor or a teacher or a school counselor, hopefully, or college admissions rep. But I think what we're asking them more for is career pathways because some students can figure it out, a career pathway, it's something, do you like helping people? Do you like working outdoors? Do you like working with people? Do you want to work with computers, people, data things, all of those things that we've used for years?
And I think that that's really important because careers that they're going to be joining or being a part of, by the time they graduate college, they don't even exist yet some of those jobs. There's some standard jobs that'll always be around. We're going to need teachers hopefully and school counselors and police officers and firemen and doctors and nurses, things like that, but there are careers that don't even exist. And then there's careers that exist now that won't exist then because of technology and advancements and things like that.
So instead of trying to pinpoint them, if they're not ready for that, then we talk about strengths and skills. If they are ready for that, then it's our job to help them get them to the right school that has those offerings, to your point. So I think in global terms it can mean different things for different people.
And along the line, I just want to mention one other thing we haven't talked a lot about, but is the mental health piece along the way where students are doing well mentally, emotionally, socially, emotionally along the way, because that's been a big factor since COVID. We saw a significant increase in anxiety and depression in students. And part of what we do in this college planning process is we're doing all of this work.
We're planning and helping build steps for them to reduce the anxiety, reduce the stress, reduce all of these horrible feelings they're feeling so that when they do go on to life after us, that they are doing so in a good state of mind and in a healthy state of mind. And that's a really huge component that was not as big a component or we weren't aware of it years and years ago, but it's really forefront in our world today. That's something that's an essential component as well for all of us.
Stacey Zwick:
And that brings that back to fit. If you scrape and crawl and end up at a place simply because of the bumper sticker, as Vanessa mentioned, or wanting to put that sweatshirt on social media or because you know that that name has a prestige that other people know of, but it's not the right place for you and it's going to do any percentage of damage to your mental health that is just no sticker on the back of a car is worth that. It just isn't. And you're not going to have that experience that you think you're going to have once you're there.
As Jill had said, if you brand yourself as something that you're not and then you get to that place that you think that brand has gotten you, what's the point? It's not who you are. It's not authentically who you want to be. And just circling back to what you had said, Lee, about careers is I don't have the data exactly in front of me, but gone are the days of getting into a career, for the most part, for 30 years. That's not the world that these students are going to wind up in. They will hopefully get their degree in something that's going to then continue to feed different parts or they're going to end up in a job that's going to train them for something completely different.
So one of the things we try and emphasize with our students so often is that it's about learning how to learn. And the more you learn about yourself, the more your mental health is going to stay stable. The more you learn about what is important to you, the better fit you're going to find in the place that you land. And the more you know about all of those pieces, the better set up you are to A, wind up in a career that is healthy and a great fit for you, or have the skills, if you wind up in a career that's not, to make the change because there's nothing worse than winding up in a place, whether it's a school, a career, any type of situation, and not having the skills to change that. And I think that's critical.
Lee Coffin:
And I've started telling kids to think about not I want to be a lawyer, nurse, journalist, but what are the verbs and words that describe you as a learner? I start with, words or numbers? Logic? Creativity? Are you hands-on? Are you more abstract? Do you want to serve? All of those things lead in different directions. I'm very verbal, so for me, any job I ever would have had would need to involve writing and talking and performing. That's what I do now. But I don't know that I knew that that drama club kind of caricature I just described led to this career. But it's another way of thinking about where you go, where's the fit, what might you study?
Stacey Zwick:
Or do you not know yet?
Lee Coffin:
Or do you not know yet? Right.
Stacey Zwick:
And if you do not know yet, that's okay. And it's also okay to take the time to find out. There's not always a perfect path.
Jill LaPlant:
At the end of the day, we're asking 16, 17, 18-year-old kids these questions that sometimes I feel like they are not ready to answer.
Stacey Zwick:
Absolutely.
Jill LaPlant:
I know gone are the days where people go into careers, like you said, and stay there for long periods of time, but there's just so many things that they really don't know about. A lot of our kids want to do things that their parents do or that their parents' friends do or family members do, and there's a whole world out there that they aren't even aware of. And college is about that, exploring different options and opportunities that they didn't have.
Lee Coffin:
I knew this was going to happen. This conversation has almost run the full hour already, but I had a couple just quick questions I want to toss at you just to see what you think. Parent Facebook groups, good idea or not? Everybody just stuck their tongue out and put their thumbs down. I agree. Good, that was an easy question. Don't do it.
I referenced two media stories about admissions and I named the podcast Admissions Beat because there's so much coverage of the work I do, the work we do together. How does a parent consume that information? I'm guessing these stories appear on the front page of New York Times and others, and then you get emails and calls right away asking to comment.
Pamela Scott:
Well, like you said earlier, we have educated parents in our communities and so they come and with good questions. We want them to be educated consumers and we want our students to be educated consumers as well of all the information. And we want them to filter through the information through the proper lens. And that's, I think the role that we play is when they read these stories or they see something on the news or they see something on the Facebook page or they hear it at a local social gathering, wherever it is, we want to have the opportunity to help reinforce that or to debunk it or to do whatever we need to do to provide the accurate information.
And sometimes that's reaching out to the colleges. Sometimes that's information we already have. We all do professional development. Most of the time outside of our schools, we're going to the colleges, we're going to the conferences to learn so we can be up-to-date and current with what we're telling our students and families. So I think we want them to have accurate information and the more informed they can be, the better. And also, we need to focus on the students in their process. So that's a really important piece that the student is also educated and informed.
Vanessa Montorsi:
This is Vanessa from Fairfield. And just to realize much of the news that we consume today is slanted in one direction or another, so understanding the other side of it. And to what Pam's saying is ask us, we're the ones that are essentially the experts in this. We understand. We know both sides of the story. I mean all four of us went out to Los Angeles this past fall to the national conference because we love what we do and we're very engaged with this process. So definitely call us and we'll help clarify anything that was not clarified in that article.
Lee Coffin:
And my plug on your behalf is, families, call the people in your schools. When you hear something that seems to be a problem, not true, confusing, go to the source.
Stacey Zwick:
Please.
Lee Coffin:
Not the Facebook page. So I'll just have you go around, what's the hardest part of your job doing college advising in a suburban public high school?
Vanessa Montorsi:
I think for me, so this is Vanessa again from Fairfield, it's again, getting parents to understand that there are other options besides the traditional four-year school of a big name college or university. There are thousands of schools out there, so be open to that.
Stacey Zwick:
And I think similarly, it's managing expectations of everyone, of parents, of students. These are your precious children that you've handed over and that you're about to hand over to a whole other place when you're talking about college. And I think it's managing the expectation of this phenomenal, amazing student you have sitting in front who has done everything right, everything that they were told to do, everything that all of the blogs and the articles and The New York Times and their counselor and their parent, everyone told them to do, and they still didn't get into the school.
And so I think managing that expectation from the beginning of it's okay, that's going to happen and that's not about who you are. That's that part that's so hard to navigate with all of these children that we care so much about and that we want to help get to the best place that they can be.
Lee Coffin:
College admissions is unavoidably emotional. As much as we talk about data and logic and all the other things that we reinforce, it's emotional. So Pamela and Jill, you get the flip side of the question, what's the best part of your job?
Pamela Scott:
This is Pamela from Wilton. That's the easy part, it's our students. I mean, we do all of this for our students and best part is seeing them happy and seeing them grow. That's why I like high school because I know they have so much ahead of them and they can do anything that they want truly. And I truly believe that any student can walk out of our doors and do whatever they want. And if they have the soft skills that you guys were talking about earlier, the transferable skills, whatever you want to call them, that their whole world is in front of them.
And we all have great academic institutions that we know are giving them a great education, and so it's all the other pieces of the puzzle. If we can help provide that to them and set them out in the world, that's the exciting, I mean, that's my favorite part of our job. And I think we all work really hard for that. That's why we do our jobs.
Lee Coffin:
Jill, you get the last word.
Jill LaPlant:
I think the best part is really watching them grow and seeing who they become. I'm in education 26 years, 25 of them have been working for the school district. I started as a teacher, then as a school counselor, and now I'm an administrator. I've worked in all three of our buildings. I live in the community. I have a senior in high school in my house. So I'm really invested in this community and I love seeing them years down the line when we can truly see all of the work and the support that we've provided to them and how they turn out at the end. It's amazing to me. They are phenomenal people. Been doing this 25 years and now some of their kids are here in the school system and it's a great thing to see. It really is.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I wanted to end on a happy note because I think the underlying theme of every episode I do is to be reassuring to families and students that this is a complicated process, it's not an impossible one. Your odds expand when your options get realistic and they contract when you get too aspirational. And you've got people in the schools, as you've just heard, who are your advocates, and you've got people in the colleges who are also your advocates, you just don't see us. But we are working with you towards an outcome that we think will matter.
And listeners, as you're digesting this topic of suburbia, I opened with the sentence, I am a son of suburbia. I go back to that to say we are still part of the college admission process. We have priorities at the college level to expand access into rural communities, into urban communities, into international communities, and into your community. Students from suburban schools are very well represented. They always have been, they still are. And your truth counts, your story counts, and the contributions you bring to our campuses are really important.
So don't mistake headlines that might focus on a rural initiative to mean we need to move to the woods. Stay where you are, be who you are, where you are. Pamela, Jill, Stacey and Vanessa, thank you. And listeners, I will be back next week for the season finale of Admissions Beat. For now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for listening.