Season 5: Episode 8 Transcript
Learning to Read
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's dean of admissions and financial aid, and this is Admissions Beat.
Now I have a little bit of a cold, so bear with me on this episode as I sound a little more froggy than usual, but it's March. These things happen. Last week we had an encore of the all-time most downloaded episode of Admissions Beat, which was the Inside the Admission Committee conversation I had with Jack Steinberg last year, where we took you behind the curtain and showed you the kind of conversations we have among ourselves as we're shaping a class. And it occurred to me that it would be interesting as a companion to that conversation to meet four of my colleagues who are doing this for the very first time. So this week we have four admission officers all making their way through the reading thicket for the first time as admission officers. When we come back, we will meet this quartet from the Dartmouth admission staff and hear what they're loving, bearing or hating as they move through reading this winter. We'll be right back.
(music)
I am excited to introduce to our listeners four of my colleagues from Dartmouth in alphabetical order. We have Clarissa Hyde, Will Kieger, Laura Rivera-Martinez, and Jackie Pageau. All of them started with us as admission officers last summer, went through reader training, and have a territory they're managing as admission officers. And here we are in March, getting ready to go into Committee, the reading continues. And I wanted to have a conversation with the four of you about what this has been like. So maybe before we start, just one by one, if I can call on you just to introduce yourself and tell our listeners where you're from. I can say by way of a group introduction, three of the four graduated from college last year. So not only is this their first year as an admission officer, this is their first job after college. And all three of them had been senior leaders in their respective college admission offices. So not an unusual career segue from college tour guide, senior interviewer, intern, to the work we do.
And one took a slight detour from a career that I would say is not wholly distinct from what we do but different. So Jackie, don't you go first? So Jackie is an assistant director, she's been working for several years since graduating about five or six years ago. So Jackie, what's the story that brought you to the admission office?
Jackie Pageau:
So I grew up in Lebanon, New Hampshire, right? A hop, skip, and a jump down the road from Dartmouth. And I graduated about five years ago and I spent those five years working in theater professionally, as well as theater education. So I was in New York City for a couple of years as a stage manager and then I spent the last two, three years up here in White River Junction, Vermont, doing theater education and continuing to stage-manage and act and all of those wonderful things. So quite a pivot when I joined this team last summer.
Lee Coffin:
What made you want to pivot?
Jackie Pageau:
The theater lifestyle is really fun and really interesting and I really love the storytelling aspect of it especially, and the people piece of it. And I got to a point where I wanted to try that in a new capacity and Dartmouth is in a really exciting time right now. We just had our new president change over, I just had my five-year reunion from graduating. And it felt like a really nice time to kind of come back and reengage with this community and use those kinds of storytelling, people skills I had from the theater background and now putting them into a new context.
Lee Coffin:
Excellent. And our other colleagues are brand brand new. So Laura, so you joined us from Middlebury, where you had been a senior interviewer. Tell us a little bit about how you got from Middlebury to here.
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
Yeah, so my name is Laura, I use she- her pronouns. I just recently graduated from Middlebury with a major in political science. And my senior year I actually just found this job posting asking for senior fellows. So seniors at Middlebury who could potentially give presentations and just kind of work at the admissions office. And it just kind of started to sound like a potential career avenue for me after college. Middlebury is in Vermont, so it's not too far away from here, Hanover, New Hampshire. So it just kind of makes sense that that's one of the things that I thought about when I originally applied for this job.
Lee Coffin:
And Clarissa also came to us from a senior admission gig at her alma mater.
Clarissa Hyde:
Yes, I did. I attended Vassar College where I got my degree in English with a minor in Hispanic Studies. And I was a tour guide and then a senior tour guide there, where I got to interact really closely with some other admissions officers. And I was just constantly curious about the goings-on and the reading season. And then I started applying for jobs, and as soon as I met the Dartmouth team, I knew I had found my first home and my first job. And so I'm just so happy to be here and to be able to share my experience.
Lee Coffin:
Love that. And Will, last but not least.
Will Kieger:
Following the trend of small liberal arts colleges, I graduated from Hamilton College. I think in my first year I became a tour guide. Just that interaction with the admissions office later culminated in that senior year interviewing position. So firstly I graduated majoring in neuroscience. And neuroscience, I like to say that everyone has a brain, everyone thinks, and so it's related to just the human experience. Really what I initially thought was I wanted to be a teacher. I liked interacting with people, I loved really that face-to-face, hearing different people's stories, sort of that storytelling aspect. And actually it was I think the winter break that senior year when I realized I really liked this admissions role, I liked interviewing students, getting to meet them. And so that eventually pivoted into where I am now. And similar to what Clarissa said, the team here at Dartmouth really, really made the decision quite easy. So I love the team and love the position.
Lee Coffin:
All right, love that. So as we talk about reading in this episode, I've always thought of reading applications as the work of the work. All of you talked about storytelling and presenting and meeting students and being a public-oriented person. But kind of the work of the work is when the applications come in, and we have to read them one by one. And do an evaluation and then the evaluation leads to a conversation, and the conversation leads to a decision. And it's such a big part of what we do, it's got its own season. Reading season is a thing. We have travel season in the fall and now we're in reading season, which usually parallels winter. Which I've always thought my life in northern places, "Fine, I'll read during the winter." I'm not a big fan of the snow, so it gives me something to do.
But I would say as somebody who's been reading for over 30 years, it's my favorite part of the job, but it's also exhausting. It's intense, it feels like you're preparing for final exams for 12 weeks. Does that make sense? Will just threw his head back as I said that. Is that a good analogy?
Will Kieger:
Yeah, I completely agree. In fact, that's actually how I would describe it or I have described it to many friends. And I think also with that winter time period, it is cold outside and so a lot of people are kind of bundling up, getting inside. And so reading just really, it's that big transition marathon, not a sprint.
Lee Coffin:
It's a marathon. Yeah. Laura, what do you think?
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
I was thinking of how to describe reading season, I think that's the perfect way to say it. It's a marathon, and I'm really glad that we're almost at the finish line. It's the light at the end of the tunnel.
Lee Coffin:
It's a marathon of final exams too. And Jackie, you're a presenter, but how is this marathon translated for you as pulling into a more analytical part of your persona?
Jackie Pageau:
Yeah, I think it was funny that we all kind of highlighted that storytelling, people skills piece because it does naturally we think of that being with people in a space, sharing that space. But I think a lot of that translates to the reading side as well, where I'm not doing the storytelling anymore, right? The applications are doing the storytelling. And so I'm receiving those stories, I'm receiving those people and meeting them, albeit on paper for eight hours a day, nine hours a day, depending on the day. It's still that kind of people skills. Analytical side of it, but still getting to hear those stories and kind of make what I can from those stories.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, and I saved Clarissa for last because you're an English major. So Will outed himself as a neuroscience major, I think about the brain and people, but you read, you read books, you're a poet. Is reading an application in any way related to reading books and poems?
Clarissa Hyde:
I would say yes.
Lee Coffin:
Oh good. Okay. I wasn't sure what you'd say.
Clarissa Hyde:
To continue with our line of metaphors, I would say that reading season is kind of like a reading assignment that never ends in some ways. Which I was used to as an English major, but this is in some ways the hardest work I've ever done. But I would say the storytelling aspect that we all get from each individual application is probably the most special part of the work that we do. It's really a privilege to be able to honor each individual story and to really be the lens through which our institution sees them. Despite the fact that it's a lot of, I don't know, brute force labor in some ways just pushing through. Each application is really special and it's really awe-inspiring how much I've learned just from reading these student stories.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and we're all saying the same thing, the word "endless" is one I just wrote in my notebook because you all mentioned it. And to listeners, we don't say endless in a dreadful way, it's just it's a big queue of files to read and it does feel endless. It feels like, "Oh my gosh, they just keep coming." And you meet them one by one and it takes a lot of time and energy. But I hope what you take from this comment we're all making is also the idea that we do it seriously and we do it thoughtfully. But I'm wondering for the four of you as you do it for the first time, if I go back to when we interviewed last spring and we talk about reading, I'm trying to imagine each of you as an applicant making the leap into the admission reader role. And there's really no way for me to either describe it in a way that you could appreciate it or have you give me an answer that helps me say, "Yeah, this one's ready."
So what do you think about that? Did you anticipate this in the way it's played out or has this surprised you?
Jackie Pageau:
I think the thing that has surprised me the most has been how singular the focus is on reading during this time.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Jackie Pageau:
I guess I wasn't sure if we would still be kind of doing our other projects as we went along or still having meetings every once in a while. And it really is reading for months at a time and there really isn't anything else going on. And every other project takes a pause for the most part while we're here, especially as new readers. And I think that one note, one task singularity of it for such a long stretch of time was a surprise to me as we kind of got into it.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, it's a solitary season.
Jackie Pageau:
Mm-hmm.
Will Kieger:
Kind of jumping off of what Jackie said, I really resonate with that singular sort of experience. It is very narrow at times and I think I find myself doing reading of a day's worth and then I open up my eyes and go out into the real world and it's kind of a surprise and whatnot. But the other thing then is as we... I don't mean to jump the gun, if you're going to mention reading after other readers, when you go on that second read for applications. That to me is a whole another perspective, it's a big kind of... As opposed to being narrow, it's a lot more broad. Where you're able to then think about, "Hey, with all the other applicants that I've read so far, how does this one kind of fit into that?" So it's kind of interesting how those... I think at first it's a very narrow scope and then it eventually kind of broadens out more as you begin to consider the pool as a whole.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And what Will is describing is a system many colleges use where you're read two or three times. The primary reader often based on the recruitment territory, so a geographic docket that we manage, I'll come back to that in a second. And then for the students who move into the next round, we do a second read, where you are reading behind somebody else and you get to see another reader's framing of the argument. And I agree, Will, it is... We're all trained the same way, but we bring our own style and flavor to the way we do it. And I learn a lot all these years of doing this. I adopt lingo that other people use and it helps me move through. So do you like reading? The job, as Jackie said, there's a lot of outward facing work we do, but is the solitary intensity of this phase interesting, fun? Do you like it?
Will Kieger:
I go back and forth. I did love travel season, just meeting people, going to different high schools, visiting, saying hi to counselors, saying hi to the prospective students. I think that is just really cool to broaden your perspectives and get to see these places. But you're seeing these places in which you will then later read applicants from. And I think the two in tandem, if we only did travel in isolation or only did reading in isolation, it just wouldn't be the same. Reading kind of gives that travel more meaning. It allows you to not just connect and be there in person, but it allows you to kind of connect more mentally, emotionally with these applicants who really have poured their heart and soul into their application.
Lee Coffin:
Laura, Clarissa, how are you faring as you move into mid-March?
Clarissa Hyde:
I think my favorite part of this job is the students. And what Will described about travel season and our ability to interact with them, to answer their questions, to learn more from them is my favorite part of this job. And during reading season in so many ways we're detached from students with the exception of hearing their stories. I certainly enjoy the storytelling aspect, which we've covered quite a bit about, but getting to see them in person is definitely something I miss.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, and what's coming next, the piece that you haven't really seen is, you come out of March, we've made our decisions, and then all of a sudden these people we have met through files show up on campus. You get to say hello, shake someone's hand and realize, "Oh, you're this student I read from Denver, and here you are with your dad." And it brings a whole another twist on the travel, reading, admission programming in the spring. So each piece builds on itself. Laura, how have you found it?
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
I think I started with all the energy and then you're really excited to meet applicants. And I think I've been able to sustain that energy throughout, but it's kind of these last couple of weeks where I'm finding myself looking for a little more energy elsewhere. But I also think that it is a, not lonely endeavor, but you're by yourself. But also I've been able to say, go read with Will and Clarissa sometimes. And so we kind of find community within that individual very focused process, our process. But yeah, I'm excited to finish my docket, finish those cues and start having those conversations in Committee.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. We pivot from being almost monk-like in our isolation to being in a room with each other for days on end making decisions. So it's like, I'm by myself. Oh my God, I'm with everybody. Let's talk a little bit about... So we've mentioned dockets and travel. So you each manage a territory. So you recruit, you travel, you read it, you're responsible for being the liaison with schools and parents and alumni interviewers. And sometimes that docket draws from your own geographic route. So Will grew up in Ohio, Jackie mentioned she's from the Upper Valley, Clarissa's from Utah, Laura went to high school in Connecticut, but born in Colombia. As you've moved around in your geographies, how has that informed your reading? Clarissa, you represent Dartmouth in the Rocky Mountains, Intermountain West. Does having grown up in Salt Lake City give you a perspective on those applicants from the western states that's been helpful?
Clarissa Hyde:
Certainly, yes.
Lee Coffin:
Yes.
Clarissa Hyde:
I think Utah and the Intermountain West is a very unique part of the United States. Some people even still refer to it as the Midwest. Yeah. And so it's a perspective that I have and it's really a special treat to be able to share that with these students who are applying. And there are so many little funny idiosyncrasies about Utah and about the West in general that these students are experiencing in the same way that I experienced. And so it's just wonderful to be able to connect with their perspectives.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, when you mentioned Midwest there we have our Cleveland rep. Will manages a big chunk of the Great Lakes area from Minnesota right around to Western Pennsylvania. So have you found that Midwestern identity to be useful in your docket review, Will?
Will Kieger:
Yeah, definitely. Just as I'm reading applications, I will sometimes come across a candidate and I'm like, "Oh, this is someone I really could have known. This is someone I do know in high school who's growing up with them." So on that standpoint, yes, there are definitely applications I resonate with. There are other times when... I haven't honestly traveled to all the states I'm reading for. For instance, this past fall when we had travel season, it was the first time for me really visiting Wisconsin, Minnesota, some of these places. And it's just really, I think also fascinating having grown up in Ohio and then kind of reading more into how different Midwestern states feel. Because I think that reading those applications definitely gives you some insight into the slight differences just between the states.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, and Jackie, I'm going to shift from geography to the arts because you are the coordinator of arts recruitment and you've been working with our faculty on portfolio review. How have you been able to weave your artistic background into this reading process?
Jackie Pageau:
Yeah, it's been a fun pairing with geography, right? Because we all have our territories and then I get to have this artistic lens that everyone all over the world is sending in portfolios and having that piece to their application. And so it's been fun to kind of come in and see what our portfolio review process is and reconnect with departments and kind of hear what people are really excited about in our incoming students. And how we can then as representatives looking at people's application, kind of find those pieces and be able to highlight them. Especially, I do a lot of second reads on files that have a really artistic bench to them because I have that expertise from our faculty. And can go in and be like, "Ah, I just talked to the head of the theater department and this student is articulating exactly what the theater department's goals are in this coming year." And so I can call out how great of a fit that is. So that's been a fun lens to kind of layer on top of territory.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and go one step farther there, Jackie. So if you're a junior in high school, so you'll be applying six, nine months from now. And you have an artistic background. Either you're thinking, "I would like to major in music." Or you play the French horn and you just want that artistic talent to be part of your story. How should high school juniors be thinking about a portfolio when they're welcome in the admission process? And how does that contribute to storytelling and reading?
Jackie Pageau:
Yeah. A portfolio is a really helpful piece of the storytelling of your application. Especially when that's something integral to your identity. So often we'll read an application where someone says they're an All-State trombone player and they sing in seven choirs and they're playing in the local symphony and they're music directing over here. And then we don't get to see an art supplement from them, and it just makes my heartbreak because I want to see it so badly, it's such a core piece of that person. And that goes for theater, that goes for dance, that goes for art, which are the kind of four categories that we have portfolio review for. But it is so helpful to be able to see that piece of passion as a part of the application. And our faculty are reviewing those, so they're getting a chance to weigh in kind of from the faculty side. And then we get to see what they've been able to write about you, which is also really helpful to us.
But it always feels like a huge chunk is missing when someone is like, "Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance." And then they don't send in a dance supplement. I'm like, "I just want to see you dance."
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And for listeners, unless it's a conservatory environment, a liberal arts college saying, "Send in a portfolio." If it's great, it's frosting on your cake. If you're off-key in your portfolio, we don't use that against you. So I'm wondering about Laura, Clarissa and Will are exactly five years out of high school. You back up to the spring of 2019, you were each a senior. Which might seem incredible to think about it, but has reading prompted any of you kind of to step back and rethink the story you told about yourself five years ago? Yeah, Laura is nodding, yes. What have you been thinking as you read and think back to your own application?
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
Well, actually since I started this job, I've been meaning to reread my application. I don't know where it is in my files, but I think it would be, I don't want to say cringe, but now that I know better and it's just a different perspective, most definitely. I think the one thing I would say is that I think in high school I didn't really think about admissions officers as people. There's actual people reading your application one by one very holistically. Particularly, for liberal arts colleges. And now I'm that person that's reading your application and I know how much effort and energy we put in every single app and how much we care about every single detail, additional information, anything at all. And so if I could tell something to my senior year self would be to just really go ham with the application and let the admission officers know everything that is happening in your life and whatever other accomplishment you got.
Lee Coffin:
Will or Clarissa, any retrospective thought on your own application?
Clarissa Hyde:
I think I could have done a lot more with my high school experience. I read these fantastic applications of students who have done any number of things from starting their own nonprofit organization to truly making an impact in their school, to just providing opportunities for others. And I think that was something that I hadn't considered in my high school experience that I would definitely do if I had a second chance at high school. I think about that all the time. If I could do high school again, what would I do?
Lee Coffin:
And so are you advising juniors in high school to ponder the impact they've had in their local community? What's the news you could use if you're a junior in high school based on what you're kind of saying, "Wow, I didn't do that and I wish I did."?
Clarissa Hyde:
I would say that the most important thing that you can do in your college application and in your high school career is be yourself and to be authentic. And completely outside of the college admissions process, making an impact in your community and providing opportunities for others is just a fantastic use of time. And a really rewarding experience that will catalyze all sorts of relationships and realizations in your life. And so making that impact in your community, it looks fantastic on a college application, but the experience that you gain is invaluable.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Is there a misperception out there in high school about what counts? Now you're reading files and you're seeing the way you respond to something that's been submitted. When you start visiting high schools again and someone says, "Well, what counts, Laura?" What are you going to say now that you've actually... Now you're going into your sophomore year of reading, which it's better. The second time is not as tough as the first, but how will this winter inform the way you counsel juniors about the story they put together? And what they get distracted by that you're like, "Stop that. You're looking up the wrong tree for that one." Yeah, Jackie, you're nodding.
Jackie Pageau:
Yeah. I think having kind of been in this isolation of reading for this amount of time and really getting to spend, I don't mean that in a bad way, but really getting to spend a lot of time inside of these files, we start to develop a gut for when a student is really excited and passionate about the things they're doing. And so I think I also worked with high schoolers in the theater education space before coming into this, and there sometimes can be a perception that you have to be doing the 15 other things that everyone around you is doing. You have to check all those boxes and you have to join this club because it's going to look good on a resume. And it's amazing to me on the reading side to know that the advice that I was told to give to students, which is to be yourself and to follow your authentic passions, really does come across, even in paper. It's really amazing to see how excited folks can get about the things that they are doing and the things they're passionate about.
And it pretty quickly becomes clear when students are doing things that they aren't passionate about. And they are doing it because someone has told them that it will be a good idea for them to do that. So I think I echo Clarissa in saying, as much as you can be yourself, which is much easier to say than it is to do, the better you're all to be.
Lee Coffin:
Well, describe a moment when you're reading, any of you, where a really high-achieving student is not pulling all the threads together in a way that makes a competitive app. What have you found as readers where you're like, "Oh, I want to make the case and there's just not enough evidence. What's missing?"
Will Kieger:
The biggest thing is a lot of high schoolers and... When I was in high school, a lot of the things you do are very meaningful to you, they impact the community most certainly. And I think a large component of that kind of as you're saying is you have to really articulate these experiences and make it clear. Try to distill down how it's impacted maybe your high school community, your broader community, yourself, your own developments. Not only do you have to write in a college application, but I think you should kind of reflect back on your high school experience and say, "Hey, what have I done? How have I spent my time?" And then use that reflection process, that introspection to then kind of distill out pieces and parts and say, "Hey, I started this club because I really wanted to bake cookies with friends. And that love of baking cookies and eating them, that turned into a whole community that I'm sure has uplifted many people. It gets people coming back after school excited."
I think there's that component of really articulating and distilling what you've done in high school and articulating it well in your application I think is a big part. So being very, I guess deliberate with the sort of community, the impact, maybe asking other people, "Hey, how has this experience helped you?" What do you see? Because those other perspectives might be helpful.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. What surprised you?
Jackie Pageau:
I have one that I've been talking about a lot recently, which is that, as I read, I have to fight really hard not to get distracted by all the new skills that I want to learn as I read. Everyone's files are so cool and people are doing such cool things. They're learning six languages and they're learning new skills and they're joining a club I've never even heard of. And I have to keep a list that I write on my desk of all of the things I wish that I could stop working for the day and go pick up and do. And I literally have a list of things that I'm excited to start in April when we kind of get through the rest of reading in Committee. But I've been surprised by how inspired I am by the applications and how interesting the things people in the world are doing are.
Lee Coffin:
I do the same thing. Someone will mention a book or a film and I'll make a note and say, "I don't know that and I'm going to go look at it."
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
I also have something that's been on my mind and it's just how much talent we have in our pool is just how outstanding and high achieving and just amazing great students we have. Just the general power of the pool is pretty impressive. And that was something that surprised me at first because, oh, every single app I'm reading is pretty awesome and great and it has so many great things, very unique things. And then we're having discussions about it, but that's one of the things that surprised me.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. You just brought me organically to the topic of selectivity and how you have navigated that in your first year. And maybe I'll be really specific. So we're admission officers, we're looking for reasons to say yes, but a byproduct is we must say no. How hard is that then?
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
Very... If I can say-
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, go ahead, Laura.
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
I think that's the most difficult part of the job by far. At least for me, just to articulate the reasons why not, that's been one of the most challenging parts of this job. And particularly reading season, just to say what are the reasons why we could not say yes to this student or not? Yeah, and just how to articulate that and verbalize that.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and sometimes saying no is not predicated on a reason. Because I get questions every year after we release decisions and they'll say, "What was wrong?" I say, "Nothing." In almost all cases, it was just volume. And we had to make really precise decisions on a small number of people we could invite into our small class. But that doesn't mean the people we could not invite were inferior in some way or had done something wrong. But that first year skill takes time to develop, I think, because you start reading. And before you get to Laura's observation, like, "Wow, most of them are great." And how do I sort that top-heavy curve into a thoughtful, "Okay, they are all wonderful, and these are the ones I know and champion."? Will, how has that been for you?
Will Kieger:
Yeah. So along that line, there are a lot of applicants, and I think the biggest thing, it's just not getting hampered down with the guilt. You have to move forward because there are going to be ones that you have that gut feeling as was said, and there are other ones where you really like. You know that they're not going to make it in just based on sheer numbers. The biggest struggle for me is I guess not being getting... kind of bogged down and stuck on an application and trying to keep moving forward with my head held high, I guess.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Did that hit each of you when you were in your first committee? So that would've been an early decision. So you'd been on the job barely six months and you were the full voting member of the selection committee for early decision. Talk about the relationship between reading and voting and not getting bogged down as you make decisions. Because what I like that you're all saying, and I hope, parents and students listening, this is the knowledge that this is not easy. And the humans who are reading the file are rooting for you even when we have to say no. I think that's sort of the message that's bubbling up out of your first years of doing this, but let's rewind to December because we're about to go into your second version of the committee. So how did that first committee help you think about reading as you moved into regular decision?
Clarissa Hyde:
I think I can respond to that.
Lee Coffin:
Go ahead, Clarissa.
Clarissa Hyde:
So there were a couple students in ED that I read and my jaw dropped, I was just so impressed with them. They were so compassionate, they had huge impacts in their community and were so authentic to themselves. And then we got to Committee and some of them didn't make it. And I was heartbroken for them just because I, as you had said, Lee, really rooted for them and I knew that they had what it took to make it. And then I actually had a student come in who had been denied from our pool, he wanted to speak with me. And he told me about this crazy idea, crazy meaning brainiac idea that would revolutionize engineering and biology. He used so many words that I didn't know, and he was just so excited to pursue that idea at Dartmouth. And I told him, "I'm so sorry you didn't get in, but you can continue to pursue that idea." And I watched him realize that in real time, realizing that he was really the magic behind his own ideas, and it wasn't necessarily an institution. That was the spark for him.
And I think that was a really comforting experience to know that he was going to do incredible things. I just got to be there to read his story.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So you're all learning how to do this during the immediate aftermath of the Supreme Court ruling against Harvard and Chapel Hill and the use of race as one factor among many. So you didn't participate in the admission process before, but you're doing it now in a race-neutral way and were trained accordingly. What's that been like? Because we touch headlines and this is a really pragmatic example of the law changed, we adapted our processes and you're now doing it. Has it been hard, easier than you thought to still meet someone through the prism of life experience? What are you feeling about the importance of diversity in the work we do, but the framing of it in an application has to be redefined?
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
Well, I have a couple of thoughts about that. This is Laura, by the way, for the listeners. Well, I think from what I understand and what I understood during our first trainings about how to read applications in a race neutral way, I think for us it might've been a little bit easier since we did not learn to do it the other way. And throughout this experience reading applications, I think I've been able to look at applications, look at the students through the lived experience lens in a way that capture the greater contextual environment for the candidacy. I don't know, I feel like it's been rewarding in a way to find ways to articulate the potential in a candidate without referring to race specifically. And that hasn't been too difficult for me in my experience.
Will Kieger:
I also agree in many ways. I think we all have our own territories, and part of that initial, I guess reading, this responsibility is understanding where each applicant is situated, their high school, where they are in their neighborhood. And that, a lot of that comes through other ways. For instance, you'll be able to read their applications, their writing, and in many of those cases, if someone has had a very lived experience, some context that's very important to them, that will manifest in their writing. As I get enmeshed into the context, into their high school, the neighborhood environment, all of these things, these factors, you can kind of piece together the puzzle that is this applicant. And sometimes that context, that lived experience is very explicit. And other times it is kind of just enmeshed in the environment that they are in.
Lee Coffin:
It's there. I've done it for many, many years and I was one of the people that needed to step back and say, "I have to rethink the way I do this." And what I've learned as I've read this year is the story of a person is there. The application gives lots of different places for us to meet someone. And I think the advice I will continue to give applicants is use every part of the common application to tell your story through whatever little unit that is inviting you to do, because if you don't, something's missing. And I can only know what you tell me. So with that spirit, how will you pull this year into your reading style next year? What have you learned about yourself as a reader that you're going to put in your toolkit for year two? Each could be one thing. Jackie, what's your lesson from the rookie year?
Jackie Pageau:
I think my lesson, which is potentially an obvious one, is slow and steady wins the race. And being patient with myself as I read and really taking it one step at a time because it does ebb and flow. There are times where I'll get up one morning and I'll be on the tracks and I'll be really cranking through applications because I'm in the right mindset. And there will be days where I can't believe I'm still looking at a computer screen. And so being slow and steady as we go through it and remembering that it is cyclical, this job is cyclical and that it changes. And really enjoying this time because it's an incredible privilege to be able to read these applications and learn about everyone applying.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, to give you a compliment and for our readers to hear the compliment, you are a happy reader. Right out of the gate, you have consistently presented files in a very optimistic way. Even when it's a no. You add it from a very good cheer way of saying, "Here's Will, he's awesome, but it's a no." So don't lose that because I think that's a really important quality to be able to go in, even in a very selective pool, to still come at it from a position of yes. Yeah. Will, what's your plan for year two?
Will Kieger:
The biggest thing is sitting back into my own perspective and kind of that lens I bring to the reading because each of these applicants come from their own various contexts, and of course each reader comes from their own context. And so I think really trusting my guts, and when I read an application, I say, "This one really resonates with me, with my lived experience, with my story." And then putting forth that into the application.
Lee Coffin:
Laura.
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
I think I'll echo what you just said about letting them bloom. I think I appreciate that part of our philosophy when reading; that's one of the things that you have said, Lee, or other people in our office, is just to find a "yes" in the application, and then we'll just see how it progresses through our whole entire process. But that has been, I think that's the way to approach reading in general. Particularly, at the beginning, but that's something I would take for next year for sure.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I should put that on a T-shirt. Find Me Yes. Well, Laura, you were, I remember reading training, you might've been the most copious note taker as we were preparing. You had a notebook and I feel like you were writing everything down. Did that help?
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
It did until it didn't. I think there's a point where... I will echo what Will said, it's just to kind of, we're developing our own gut. And our own gut feeling after reading at this point, 1,000 applications or something like that. And so just trusting that and trusting that there are certain steps in our process that we have different ways to account for biases. Different readers, different ways to look at an application, so I appreciate that as well.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And last word for Clarissa.
Clarissa Hyde:
I came into this role with a lot of writing and reading experience specifically through a critical lens. And when I applied that lens to student writing, it didn't work and it's just not the right lens. And in doing so much reading, I actually discovered a completely different lens, which is the lens for reading student writing. Where I noticed all these incredible things like style, narrative elements, conversational tone, the list goes on and on. And I think it's something I'm definitely going to take into next year is an appreciation for these student writers. And what they accomplish with the 650 words they're allowed in that common app essay, they really make it work.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, 650 words or less is your friend, it's not sticking its tongue out that you're saying it. Well, like I said, reading is the work of the work, it's hard. But it's also really meaningful in ways that I think we've covered for listeners to help them appreciate even from a first year perspective, that a lot of thoughtfulness goes into the way we read a file and the way we sum up a candidacy and the way we frame decisions. So thank you all for coming on Admission Beat with me today.
Laura Rivera-Martinez:
Thank you.
Will Keiger:
Thank you.
Clarissa Hyde:
Thank you.
Jackie Pageau:
Thank you, Lee.
Lee Coffin:
And now I'm going to send you back to your desks to read some more files before we start Committee, just what you wanted to hear. And for everyone, I'll be back next week with another episode of Admission Beat. For now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for joining us.