Season 5: Episode 2 Transcript
Searching
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's dean of admissions and financial aid. And this is the Admissions Beat.
So juniors, 11th graders, whatever you call yourself, we are at the beginning of this thing called your college search. College has been staring at you from your future for a long time. One of your goals, I'm sure, has been to get yourself admitted into a college of your dreams. You may not yet know what the college of your dreams is, but college is the blinking future you want to attain. So today we are going to have a conversation with two longtime college counselors, former admission officers themselves, to help you get started. How do you discover your options at this early point in your search about midway through your junior year of high school. And what are the steps you should be taking? What are the questions you should be asking? How do you get yourself going? And when come back, we'll meet our longtime friends of the pod, Sherri Geller and Ronnie McKnight, and we will have that conversation with you. So we'll be right back.
(music)
So for new listeners who are meeting Ronnie and Sherri for the first time, I should probably introduce my friends. Sherri Geller is the co-director of college counseling at Gann Academy in Waltham, Massachusetts. And for those of you outside the Boston area, Gann is a Jewish day school. Sherri is a former admission officer at Brandeis and at Northeastern, and not that long ago was also the president of the New England Association for College Admission Counseling. So the leader of all things admissions in the New England region. So Sherri, welcome back.
Sherri Geller:
Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Lee Coffin:
And Ronnie McKnight brings a southern perspective. He is the associate director of college counseling at Paideia School in Atlanta, former admission officer at Emory and Presbyterian College in South Carolina. So my southern friend, good to see you.
Ronnie McKnight:
Always good to see you.
Lee Coffin:
Ronnie, Sherri, welcome back. Happy New Year.
Ronnie McKnight:
Happy New Year, Lee.
Sherri Geller:
Happy New Year. So glad to be back.
Lee Coffin:
You are, I think they're called, "friends of the pod" on other podcasts. So you are officially friends of my pod who are making I think your third appearance as guests on the Admissions Beat. And I'm so happy to have the two of you back. And it's so funny that I keep pairing the two of you. There's no other guests that I always say, "Oh, if I have Sherri, I have to have Ronnie. If I have Ronnie, I have to have Sherri." But you play off each other so well that I'm excited to have the two of you join me for a conversation designed to probe the discovery part of the search for juniors in high school and their parents as they get started.
But as I was prepping, I also thought seniors are in the latter stage of their search, but they're still discovering. So if you're a senior or a senior parent, you think, "Oh, this isn't for me," listen, because when we get to the end of the decision-making and it's time to make a choice, you're going to discover options with a new set of eyes and ears. So this will be a refresher from where you were a year ago. So I've been asking my guests on recent episodes, especially for the junior-themed ones, to just give a quick recap on your own journey from high school to college. So Ronnie, I know you grew up in South Carolina. What's the story?
Ronnie McKnight:
I just realized in chatting with you guys before the podcast began that we are all products of public high schools. And so I grew up in a small town in South Carolina. I went to a small to medium-sized public high school where I probably met with my guidance counselor maybe once or twice in the scheme of my life there and probably navigated the college search process more on my own and with the help of my peer group than with a college counselor at my high school, who were wonderful people.
And I don't want to in any way make light of the very sincere work that they did with the population, but they probably spent more time, they had a number of other tasks other than helping me navigate college. This was especially true back in the '80s when I went for the process, but it's still true today. It is a process that you can go through relatively independently in that you can navigate and educate yourself. So as a high school student. I looked around at schools, I looked primarily in the Southeast and I wound up at a wonderful institution by the name of Presbyterian College where I also worked after I graduated.
Lee Coffin:
How did you find Presbyterian on your own?
Ronnie McKnight:
So like many kids, I did stuff during the summer and I had friends that went there. I had neighbors that had attended Presbyterian and I went to a summer program. So along with visiting some other campuses, I had explored the campus a little bit more in depth. That isn't necessary or essential in any way, but it was an opportunity that I had had. It was like a week or two long camp and I was already familiar with it and was already interested in it before the camp and probably went to that program in part because I wanted to explore the campus a little bit more and then loved it and wound up matriculating there.
Lee Coffin:
And that's a really important little kernel of news you can use, I think too, for listeners. So you can go on a campus tour and you could go online, but you can also find programs like the one Ronnie's describing where the colleges host open houses and camps and debate clinics or whatever sport camps. And there are a way to experience the place firsthand while you're still in high school. So thanks for mentioning that. Sherri, I know you are perhaps the most rabid Celtics fan I'm aware of. So I'm guessing you grew up in the Boston area?
Sherri Geller:
Oh yeah, I grew up, also Ronnie mentioned how we're both from public high schools. My college search was not too sophisticated. I was very much a homebody and wanted to live at school but be relatively close to home. And fortunately in the Boston area, there were lots and lots of choices. I don't think I knew to look at colleges that I hadn't heard of. So my parents took me to a few schools to look at them. I wanted to make sure there was a Jewish community that was important to me and my family. I didn't know a lot of the criteria that I talk about with students now in terms of the kinds of things to look at. And I'm sure we'll get into that later in the podcast.
I ended up going to Brandeis University, got very involved there in being an admissions tour guide. And then I was an intern in the admissions office and it led me to an admissions and college counseling career. I worked at the school for 11 years. My brother worked at the school. And when I look back at how some people's processes so thoughtful, mine wasn't quite as thoughtful, but it worked out really quite well.
Lee Coffin:
No, I thank you both for sharing those stories because for listeners, I hope it's reassuring to hear two people who are both former college admission officers now they're working in schools help guide you. Their search was not the magic path from A to B. And that's true for so many of us. And I think a good tip as we begin both gases, I would say myself included, from another public high school with a big caseload and a counselor, I didn't even know his name. You have to start there. So if that sounds like your school, go wander to this place called the college counseling center or the career center or the guidance office, different ways of saying the same thing, and make an appointment with the person for whom you are on their docket. And just, if you've never done it, just say hello and say, "Hey, I'm starting to plan my college process. Who do I need to be talking to get some help?"
Some of you go to schools where there's an actual college counselor, like the two people joining me today. It's a little less mysterious, but you still need to go be engaged with that person. So step one in this discovery process depends on you to knock on a door, send an email, say hello in the hallway, go find that person. And again, if you're in that big public high school where you're like, I don't even know where to start, ask your homeroom teacher. So with that preamble, wanted to talk about discovery and helping juniors start well. So no matter what kind of school they attend, imagine an 11th grader walks into one of your offices now, a month from now, six months from now, first time you've ever said hello, describe that scene.
Sherri Geller:
We're actually just starting that now. In fact, right before this taping, I was having that exact kind of conversation with a student. In our school, we actually ask students to fill out a questionnaire before meeting with us with different kinds of things. So we start from a point of having students do their own, reflecting a little bit on the kinds of things that are important to them, but we start off by getting a little sense of the kinds of things that are important to a student in choosing a college. Some students are very particular, like when I mentioned in my story that I knew it wanted to be pretty close to home and other students want to be far away or they really don't know or they don't care.
We also talk about things like, do you like being in a city school or a suburban or a more rural school? The student may have never been on a college campus and doesn't know that answer, but people know if they like cities. For example, some people find the city lights and the buzz of the city and the noise of a city very exciting, and others find it exhausting and draining. So if you're in the first category, looking at a city school might be a great idea, but if you're in the latter category, then it's kind of silly to be in a place where every day you're going to wake up or go to sleep to the noise and the lights and to things like that.
So we start talking about some basic criteria. Are there particular majors that might be of interest? Again, some students are very focused, others are wide open on that. Are there particular qualities like they want to make sure there's a strong LGBT community or they want to make sure that there's a particular religious community or that the school has a lot of extracurricular options or sports and we just talk about the different kinds of things that feel important. And to get to those, we think about their high school experience and what are the things that are important to them now that they might want to continue with, but what are also the things that they really want to leave behind?
Lee Coffin:
Ronnie, is it similar at Paideia?
Ronnie McKnight:
It is. It's exactly the same. I'll point out a couple of things because I completely agree with what Sherri just said, but some things that I just thought about while we were talking, and I first want to backtrack to when we were talking about our high school experiences. I feel like when you make the appointment to speak with me or Sherri, in many ways, you're just beginning to gather your resources. And there are lots of schools that have college counselors that are dedicated, lots of independent schools like ours that always have a college counselor. Many public high schools have a career center or college counseling center as well. Then there are some high schools that maybe don't necessarily have a person that specifically does college counseling, though that's in the umbrella of the guidance office, but which was my high school. But I remember back in high school as I approached my junior and senior years, and I approached this process that there were teachers that were really great mentors for me.
And so I knew the principal of my school and he talked with me about college and I had conversations with two of my teachers that were really important mentors for me. And so I tell you that because wherever you happen to be, undoubtedly there are men and women that have chosen to work at those schools that care about helping you as you navigate this process. So obviously your parents will have a vested interest in this as well, but if you happen to be first generation or if you don't have that support group at home, then look for those people at your high school.
What Sherri just said is exactly what we tell students: to look broadly and to think about what's important to them and to be open to the variety of colleges that exist in America. And I'll point out because Sherri lives in Boston, for about half my kids, their first act is to plan a trip to Boston. And so there are certain destinations that are pretty common in America, and Boston is probably the most common, although Atlanta isn't a shabby option either.
We always tell our students though, just from the ease of exploration, even if they have zero interest in staying in Atlanta because there's an excellent variety of schools in that vicinity, and this is undoubtedly true from coast to coast, I would always start locally just because it's easy to do. And so looking at a small school and looking at the large school and looking at a women's college and looking at a school that is inside a city and a school that's in the suburbs and a school that's in the middle of nowhere, all of which are fantastic options, beginning to have those sorts of adventures locally so that you see if you have reactions to those types of campuses.
And even if you don't like that specific school, if you like the size or if you like the resources or if you like the community or the sorts of things that you'll find at those various institutions, that takes off a lot of the pressure for that to be really intentional because you may not know what you're actually looking for, and before you invest the time and energy to fly across the country or et cetera, sometimes it's just nice to explore to get a sense of what I'm interested in.
The other thing that I will reiterate is that willingness to be open to different experiences because in reality we do approach the process and we almost always have opinions about what we're going to like. I guarantee that if you think that you're the city kid and that you only want a city campus, that there will be a campus somewhere that you visit that's not in a city that you'll absolutely love. And so the reassurance that there's such not only a wide variety of schools in America, but a wide variety of quality experiences in America and abroad that you can explore, the more open you are to those sorts of possibilities.
You don't want to be so open that you overwhelm yourself, but you do want to be open enough that you don't cut out a thousand colleges just because you say, I don't want to visit any school. I have kids that say, "I don't want to visit any school that's in the middle of America." And of course we all know that there's some amazing schools in the middle of America, but I do reassure them that there's some great schools coast to coast in every location that they could like. And that willingness to be open to that exploration I think is a very important part of the process, especially when you're a junior and you're just beginning.
Sherri Geller:
Not everyone has heard of every school that's out there. And there could be a school that comes up, however you do a search, whether someone suggests a school to you or you're searching on an online program or whatever. And it might be that the school has exactly what you want, and even if you've never heard of it, it could be the perfect place for you.
Lee Coffin:
So stick with that "I haven't heard of it" piece because I think that's probably the thing that gets in the way the most during discovery, where you start, you do the questionnaire, you get a sense of who am I counseling, what's on the beginning of this wish list? Here's some things we might introduce to you. I love the local adventure piece that Ronnie just suggested. But I've heard lots of you in school say, I haven't heard of it, that, that, that monster pops up a lot. You're both nodding.
Sherri Geller:
Yeah. I once had a student who wanted some very specific things in terms of major, and I worked on a list for this student that I shared with him and he looked and he said, "Where did you get these places?" That was the most real reaction I think a lot of students think and might not verbalize, but students and parents are often surprised when they haven't heard of a school.
Lee Coffin:
And the list you gave that student was framed by the academic interests he had shared and said, I want to study blank, blank, blank, and blank, blank, blank may have been a little atypical. And so it brought a list of places that were not immediately top of mind. Is that what happened?
Sherri Geller:
Yes. But also within the parameters of what part of the country the student wanted to be in within these other parameters. But yes, the student had heard of a few schools in the major that he wanted. But I like to suggest my school students start with a list of about 15 schools and their brainstorming, and an exercise that we do is after our first meeting, when we talk a lot about what are the kinds of criteria that you want, I ask students to go home and make a list of 15 schools that they feel meet their criteria. So they're doing some research. At the same time, I make a list for them and then we compare them and we talk with parents and involve other elements to the conversation.
But for the student part of making the list, I suggest that they do a search and think about what are those things that are important? And that's where we talk about that if you put in, "I want to be in this location and this size and this place," a school may come up that they'd never heard of. And if so, why don't you look and see what are the elements? And if you not heard of it because it really shouldn't be on your radar screen for whatever reasons, or if you just not heard of it and wow, you just found a great place because you're doing really good research.
Lee Coffin:
I want to dig into "I haven't heard of it," just one more step. How have people heard of schools exactly? I work for a place that is in a league that people recognize. Whether they understand that league or not, it seems to be a brand that has visibility. So that's one way. I think a lot of people watch college sports, and so it puts institutions in a spotlight because you're watching Alabama play Florida State on Saturday afternoon in a football game. That's visibility.
But I think I went to a small liberal arts college. Ronnie did too. I remember when I picked Trinity College, my principal said to me, "I'm really surprised you're going to the seminary." I grew up an hour away and the principal of my school thought my liberal arts college was a place for me to be a priest. And I said, "No." But some of the tiny places, which people quote haven't heard of, are actually extraordinary. They're not immediately in the public domain in the same way that a Notre Dame might be based on sports.
Sherri Geller:
When a student says to me "I haven't heard of it," I would only suggest a place if I've heard of and know reasonably well, so we can talk about it. But if a student comes to me and says, "I found this school, I haven't heard of it," sometimes I can look and say, "Oh, well, there's someone from this high school that actually is a junior there who you may not know." Or I ask them to ask their friends and their relatives, do you know anyone from this school? Sometimes I suggest that students ask their friends from camp or their friends from a job or even their teachers, where did you go to school? And so does that creates some name recognition. And I think in some high schools, in some communities, certain schools, certain college names are more prevalent than others just because of where alumni have tended to go.
Lee Coffin:
And is this a particularly sticky topic for parents who might not be born in the United States? They're first generation US, their kids are going through high school and looking at colleges here, and that's unusual. So if this is you parent, Ronnie, what's your advice to parents who were born and/or educated outside the US who the I haven't heard of it piece maybe more widespread than not? How did they start to wrap their arms around discovery?
Ronnie McKnight:
One of the privileges of being at a school like ours is that often there are schools that we're familiar with that they may not be familiar with. So because they're already part of our community, sometimes we're able to create a level of trust like, trust me, go and look at this institution, it's going to be a great fit. If you don't have that person that makes that recommendation initially, then that can be a little bit more difficult. I pause because I'm about to say something that I am going to regret saying.
Lee Coffin:
Which is why I love having you on the podcast, so let it rip.
Ronnie McKnight:
I am not a big believer in the accuracy of college rankings or in the authority of college rankings. But having said that, I do think in very broad categories that sometimes a ranking can provide some reassurance. Not that number 28 is infinitely better than number 29, but a school that's 100 might be of interest to you where a school that's 900 may not. And I make such a startling difference between 100 and 900 because I do look at those rankings in such broad, broad, broad ways knowing that when I look at schools and recommend schools to students, there are schools that are ranked 150th that I think are the most amazing place on earth.
And so I don't want to give too much credit to rankings, but I do think they can provide some roadmaps at times for students to just get a sense of a place. And of course, the first thing I would always tell a student is to look at the criteria of how those schools are ranked, what were they ranked on, what information. But it can be sometimes helpful, especially for if you're not familiar with the school or if you're not familiar with American higher education period. And so I regret saying that.
Lee Coffin:
No, no, I think it's a pragmatic truth that rankings and guidebooks are out there for consumers to review. I think the degree to which they hold those rankings and guidebooks up as something sacrosanct, that's a problem. For the listeners who, like us way back when, who are in high schools that aren't structured in quite the same way as the places where you both work, how do we help them get started so that they can't skip out of period three, walk down the hall and find Ronnie in his office?
You might be on your own. And I think what you just said is a way of saying, well, this is a tool. The websites are a tool. The college board has a search function where you could, I did this with my nephew years ago who was there over the holidays and he didn't even have a list. He was a senior in high school. I'm like, oh, dear God. So I sat down with him and I pulled up college board and I started typing in, what's your GPA? What are you thinking about? What do you want to major in? And with days to go before the deadline, I was his de facto guidance counselor coming up with a list. He got into all of them, which I was stunned by, but that database on Collegeboard.org was really helpful as a way of identifying places that I didn't come top of mind to me. But when I saw it and I thought, "Oh yeah, Jake, this sounds like you. Let's take a look."
Sherri Geller:
Another great thing that comes up in the spring is college fairs across the country, and they do tend to be in more well-populated areas, so it would vary on where a family lives, what their access is. But there are a number of organizations that run college fairs, which are, if you haven't heard of a college fair, it's kind of like a trade show, but for colleges. So students and families walk around and get information from schools and they can get on a school's mailing list, they can pick up a brochure and they can start to learn about schools that way. So that can be a great place if maybe there is a school you haven't heard of, or maybe one you heard a lot about but might not have a chance to visit, to talk to an admissions officer or a representative from the school and start to gather some information about that place.
Another thing I think is helpful if you're on your own looking, and pick a school. Probably everyone listening to this podcast has heard of at least one college, pick that college and do an exercise of going into that school's website and finding three things you like about that college and say three things you don't. Even if you think you're going to love everything about it, it's an exercise in figuring out, well, what are the things that maybe aren't so perfect? And then if you do that for a few schools, you can start to develop some sense of, "Oh, now I realize I really want to look more closely at what their academic requirements are," for example. Or I really want to look more closely at, well, it's nearest city, but is it easy to get to that city or is it actually really a challenge or whatever. You could pick different things, but you can start to see a pattern in your own research of the kinds of things that stick out as being most important.
Lee Coffin:
The word you're both using over and over again is "explore." Exploring means poke around. Don't come right out of the gate of this thing called the college search with this concrete list of "here are the six places I must attend." You don't know yet. You have to give yourself time to explore. And I always chuckle when the juniors start rolling through and we're just about to reopen for campus visits. And so over the breaks that happened in February and into April, were swarmed with 11th graders and their parents. They're looking around like wide-eyed, like, "Oh, look at this process. I'm starting." And sometimes as that discovery exploration starts, things clarify too. You visit the campus and you think, "I just don't like this." Let's talk about that. You get to a place that sounded good or you always thought you'd love it, and then you're actually there and you're like, "Meh." Do you own the meh or do you give it a second chance? Give some thought to the underwhelming visit as opposed to everything's bright and shiny and happy. For whatever reason, "meh" comes to the forefront.
Sherri Geller:
Sometimes there is a reason to give a place a second chance. There's a saying that if you see a school on a rainy day and you really like it anyway, then that's probably a good sign. But also sometimes the "meh" comes from a rainy day or a tour guide that you don't quite click with or just something maybe you're not feeling great that day. Things like that.
So I think for those kinds of reasons, it can be worth giving the school another shot, but if the school has put their best foot forward, it's a great day and you love the name of the school and you think you're going to love the city that the school's in, but when you learn about the actual school, it doesn't feel right. I think that's a really helpful learning and also helpful to share with whoever is helping you with this process, whether your parents are a college counselor, school counselor, to say, I wanted to like it, but I really didn't like that the campus felt very disjointed to me. I realized that I like a campus that is a little bit more order and structure. Or I really didn't like that there were so many requirements. I think I need a little more flexibility in the curriculum.
And other students might feel exactly the opposite way about the structure, about the kind of community and the kind of feel of the place. But I think by the time a student is a junior in high school, they have a really good sense of what are the things that make them happiest and make them feel like most comfortable and that they'd really enjoy.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Ronnie McKnight:
Well, I love when two opposite things are both true. And what Sherri just said, there are two opposites in there, and they're both true. I've had students literally to pull into a college admission parking lot and look over to their parent and say, "I don't want to go to school here. I don't want to even get out of the car and go in." And it's not necessarily the way the campus looked. It was something about that place they felt in their gut that I don't want to go to school here. And I'm a little dubious when they say that, but I also believe what Sherri said, I believe you should trust your gut. I also want to point out that for many students, they will visit Dartmouth and they're going to meet one admission counselor and one student who was their tour guide, and everyone else they interact with are going to be prospective students, some of whom will be admitted and some of whom will not be admitted.
If you love the place, great, but if you didn't, whether or not you loved it or hated it, you've only met two people. And so if you think a school might be a good match for you, give it a little bit more of an exploration than just those two people. What I think is important before you schlep all the way to some campus, even if it's just across town, before you spend a good hour and a half or two hours or more touring campus and listening to them, I think it's really important to do a little bit of homework beforehand. We try to give our students what Sherri said about exploring the website. We try to give our students some very specific examples of what it means to explore a website. And some of those things can be if you are thinking about two or three academic interests, going to not only that school's page but drill down into the department, every school will list their undergraduate courses.
Imagine you are a sophomore or junior at that institution and you're beginning to take history classes and you look at those history courses that are offered by that department and just get a gut reaction like, is this something that I would be really excited about studying or, gosh, I was thinking about studying political science, but I am actually not really interested in the courses that they're teaching here on this campus. So looking if you happen to have academic interest or if there've been favorite subjects, even if you don't think you're going to study psychology, but you've thought about it, do that as an exercise.
What Sherri said earlier about, are there certain things that you're looking for? And if so, one, making sure that those exist, but then trying to explore most, if you're interested in drama at a particular college, most of those departments will not only have a departmental presence, but if they have student organizations, they will have some sort of a web presence as well.
I like to encourage students because I know they're already wasting time on social media anyway, to waste their time in a more productive way by exploring institutions on the platforms that they most enjoy. And so whether it's Instagram or TikTok or YouTube or whatever happens to be, if you have an interest or if you're looking for like-minded individuals on a college campus, it is rare that there's not some sort of media out there sometimes produced by the institution and often produced by students. And I love both, being an educated consumer of media, obviously, but I think it's an opportunity not reading a guidebook that Ronnie told them to look at, but on a platform that they're more interested in to allow themselves to do that sort of exploration that can sometimes give the something like, "Oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I'll go and check this place out."
And I love that as a way of exploring campuses along with, once they do visit the campus, to do the official tour and the official information session. And as time allows and as security allows, because on some college campuses you just can't roam around endlessly, the opportunity to give yourself to go to the student center or to have lunch or to just interact and watch students a little bit, I think that can be a really helpful way of exploring a campus beyond the two people that you met as your admission counselor and tour.
Sherri Geller:
I have one more thing on that topic and that's thinking about are there certain things that are non-negotiable for a student themselves or for a family? So for example, the family might say, "Well, it would be okay if you're a flight away, but only if there are nonstop flights from where we live. I'm not going to have you hopping across the country having to switch planes," blah, blah, blah. Or if it's driving distance, what does driving distance mean and what's the agreement within the family of how far from home a student might be? Maybe it's about finances and having a conversation about will only look at schools that might offer scholarships or might have certain financial resources, or it might have to do with location and distance from home there too. But what are the things that are most important and is there flexibility or not? And if something is non-negotiable, it's not worth going to see the school hoping it's going to change because the magic wands don't just suddenly appear at the schools.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and that non-negotiable pieces you presented, Sherri, seems like that's upfront. As part of the questionnaire, as part of the starting point, what if any non-negotiables exist? So for a lot of us, put myself in this group, financial aid was non-negotiable. I knew I needed financial aid to make it happen. For some people, they'll look at those formulas and say, "I don't think I'll qualify for need-based aid, but merit aid is non-negotiable. I must put myself in a place where a merit scholarship makes this less expensive." That's a non-negotiable. Or it could be any of the criteria that we're bending about. But to listeners, start that list, just sit down and say what feels non-negotiable? It's a great phrase. I won't yield on this one. And then hopefully it's not a long list, but it's foundational.
Sherri Geller:
That also becomes a family discussion because a parent, if we go back to location example, might say, we are not going to pay for a school that you have to fly to. It's just not whether it's a financial decision or a distance from home decision, you have to go to a school within a six-hour drive. Well, the student might say, well, but what about seven hours or what about whatever? But that becomes a family discussion, that's always going to be non-negotiable.
One place where I think it becomes unfair to kids is if a parent knows this is not going to be a flight away, but you could just apply to one or two and then we'll see, and we'll think about it. The student gets into those schools that don't meet the non-negotiable and all of a sudden now they're in and the parent says, "Well, we said all along, you weren't going to go that far from home." That really puts a student in an unfortunate position and can really have an impact on family dynamic, which can be a whole other podcast of discussing those non-negotiables up front. And coming to some agreements of where might they be a little negotiable and what is truly non-negotiable is important and sets the parameters.
Lee Coffin:
I want to back up a step because when we're talking about Ronnie's advice to kind of look deep in departments, I think that's a really valuable tip there around news you can use because people will often get stuck on the name of the college, so I'll use Dartmouth just because that's where I work, and they'll say, "I want to go to Dartmouth." It's like, okay, what do you want to study? And you think, "Well, I'm undecided, but I'm thinking about fill in the blank." And college fairs over the years I've met students or even high school visits where they'll say, I want to study English. And I say, great. Or they'll say to me, "Do you have English?" And I giggle every time. I say, "Of course I have English, but what type of English are you thinking about?" And they look at me like that was a trick question. And I push and say, "Are you interested in studying literature, comparative literature, British literature, poetry, feminist poetry? Are you a creative writer? Are you screenwriting, playwriting?" What in that big department known as English are you interested in?"
So let's stick with creative writing. Maybe what comes back and it's like, okay, now go to that website. Do they offer a set of courses, I mean, I'm sure they'll offer some, but do they have a major in that? Do they have a concentration in that? Is that what you want? And if the answer is no, it doesn't matter that Dartmouth is a great name or a campus you find beautiful. If the program, there's three P's I'm going to put on the pod for you to think about. Program, place, people. Price would be the fourth one. But this program piece, really important, and it should be a non-negotiable. If you find a place you love, but they don't teach what you know you want, find a place like this that has that, or hiding in the program, the PEA called program is core curriculum.
Colleges don't offer their undergraduate program in the same way. They all offer a biology major, they all offer an English major perhaps, but they may say, "Oh, you have to take two courses in science, two courses in English, two courses in foreign language, two courses in mathematics." Or it might be, "Oh, we're a great books curriculum and you have to follow a really prescribed set of courses around that," or it's an open curriculum, you can take whatever you want when you want it in whatever order, or there's distribution requirements.
When I worked at Tufts, we had a six semester foreign language requirement that I would say that in my info sessions, and I would watch some kids look at their parent and go, "Oh my god, six semesters." And the other kids would be like, "That's exciting. I love studying German." But the ones who didn't like it, I would say own that because you can't wiggle out of it. You might place out of a couple of those, but part of the pedagogy of this place is to prepare you towards proficiency in a language other than English. If you don't buy into that programmatic goal, it's not the right place for you to be considering.
And those are the things within program that I think a parent especially can be listening for as the tours start and short program around websites like beyond the name, beyond affordability, what does this place ask you to do? Is there a required senior thesis four years from now? For some people that might be exciting. For other people it might be a deal breaker. So I don't know that a lot of juniors or their parents spend a lot of energy during discovery discovering this piece. And you kind of get surprised when you get to the accepted student open house and realize, "Uh-oh, all the places that admitted me have a core curriculum. I didn't want that." Well, guess what, you didn't do the homework upfront. So Ronnie, you're smiling as I say that. Have you seen this happen?
Ronnie McKnight:
So not that specific example, but pretty common that students don't quite grasp what it means to go to a university. And the fact that what you just said is absolutely true, which of course varies a thousand different ways, but every school has some sort of requirement of their students. And it's really important as you discover an institution to learn what that happens to be with the understanding that some of them are exceptionally flexible and others are exceptionally rigid.
So the good news if you're a listener out there is that many of them are fairly flexible. And so there's this balance of forcing you to explore, but also giving you the ability to pick the classes that you like. And that's pretty common. And so at many schools, kids will be fine. There are those exceptions, and your Tufts example is a perfect one. If you do not want to study six semesters, six terms of a language other than your native tongue, that is something very, very, very important to know. And there are lots of examples like that where a school has something that is very important to them that undoubtedly you'll know. But if you don't pay attention to that, then that is a rude awakening when you get there. And so that element of exploring and that understanding of if it's a core or your example of is the core curriculum, are there distribution requirements, is it completely open curriculum? Understanding that is a very important aspect of the search.
Sherri Geller:
Finding this information, some websites make very easy and sometimes you have to dig a little bit. But one nice place to start is that every college I've ever researched has a section called "About," and that's going to give an overview of the college. And often there's a little video or some pictures and some language. And I usually tell students that if you like what it says, you have to use a little bit of a critical eye because websites are marketing pieces. But if a school is putting their best foot forward and you say, wow, this is the place for me, then it's worth looking more. If they're putting their best foot forward and you say, wait, these aren't things that are resonating with me, this isn't the kind of language I'm looking for, then even though that's just a short moment on a website, it could be a reason to move on.
So as Ronnie and Lee, as you were talking a little bit about finding these requirements, those are often in the academic section of the website. But there's also another good place to start is with the admissions section of the website because frequently admissions officers are thinking about what would a prospective student want to know? They might want to know our admissions deadlines and timeline and things like that. And they also might want to see a virtual tour of the campus. They might want to know how to visit the college, and they might want to learn about these requirements and prerequisites and things like that.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, "about," a really important word as you find it on the website. Let's do a little bit of a speed round just before we wrap up. So we've touched some of these things, but in the discovery phase, campus visits, like where out? Spring, summer?
Sherri Geller:
Yes. All of the above.
Lee Coffin:
Yes. Okay. Whenever you can get yourself out and about.
Sherri Geller:
Yeah. I think depending on how your school's vacations fall, but spring breaks and into summer are a great time to start. People have mixed feelings on summer. I think summer is a great time to visit colleges. There's limited pressure, if any. You can kind of enjoy usually some nice weather, it's a little easier often for parents to take some time to go visit. And students say, well, but the campus, students aren't there, and how can I get a sense? And when I hear things like that, I think about, well, what's different? The buildings are going to look the same. The majors that are offered are going to look the same. The distance from home is going to be the same. Whether they have certain clubs and activities and events is all going to be the same. What is different is being able to see the campus in action with students.
So there, I think it is nice to see a campus or two before summer to get a sense of just what a colleges look like when people are walking around so that you can then use your imagination better over the summer. But also in the summer, a big benefit is that the people who work in the admissions office actually have time to talk to juniors advising seniors. Whereas in April, they're talking to seniors who have just been admitted. Juniors who are just starting their attention can often be pulled in a lot of different directions. So it's not to say not to visit in the spring because I think getting going is really helpful, but I also wouldn't discount summer just because the campuses are a little quieter.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I think the early visits just give you the P I'm talking about place. It tests the proposition I got to get there. How comfortable or inconvenient is it? When I'm there, how does it feel? What's the vibe of it? And my advice to juniors, as you start to find places that seem like they click, look for more places like that, trying to replicate that place vibe as you marry it to program and the opposite. As places, if you keep sputtering your way through whatever campus category it is and you're like, "Meh," how many times do you have to go, "Meh," before you realize this is not my space?
Sherri Geller:
I also think Ronnie's advice earlier for preliminary visits is right on, to see a school in a city in a school in a suburbs, a larger school in a smaller school, even if you only see two schools to pick two that are really different without worrying about, might I go there?
Lee Coffin:
We touched cost as a non-negotiable, but in this discovery phase, where do you help families talk about that? And we'll do an episode in a couple of weeks on this bigger topic, but just as counselors, how do you help parents think about cost at the beginning of a search? Ronnie, where do you point them?
Ronnie McKnight:
Yeah. For most families, cost ends up being a factor in the college search process, right? Regardless of their annual income, cost is still a factor. As you begin the process, what's most important is to keep a wide variety of options available to you both in your search and also as you start applying. Because for this specific example, often the easiest way to handle that cost situation, imagine you're the student that came to your college counselor and said, "I want to look at lots of colleges, but I do not want to look at any schools in my home state," which is fine. But if cost is a huge factor, then it's almost always one of your best deals will be an in-state public institution.
And so knowing that and being aware of that, and perhaps begrudgingly say, "Okay, I would like to go to the Northeast, but I will include a handful of schools in my home state just because I may get in-state tuition." And in the state of Georgia, there's a program called the HOPE Scholarship that gives you full tuition at an in-state public institution. But even beyond the state at most, for many kids an in-state public is a really good option to have.
The other thing for parents to understand is, don't confuse the list price, to use a car term, of an institution with what your final cost is going to be. This is true at both public and private, but especially at private institutions that what you end up paying is often not what is listed because they are providing a combination of both need-based and merit-based aid. And there are sometimes ways to get early estimates, but in many ways, you simply have to go through the process, let your child be admitted and see what the college provides. If you are able to talk with a counselor like me or Sherri, that can be sometimes helpful. But if not, be aware that that final cost isn't always the actual cost you're going to pay.
Lee Coffin:
And the net price calculators on the websites or MyinTuition, which is another calculator on many-
Ronnie McKnight:
Fantastic.
Lee Coffin:
Fantastic, on many sites is really useful. And for new listeners, go back to season four. There's an episode with Phil Levine from Wellesley who talks about MyinTuition really in detail. And that episode sits there where you're finding your podcast, but cost important. How about athletics? If someone comes in and says, either I'm 100% I want to be a recruited athlete, that's one thing, or I might like to have this part of it, or I'm athletic, I want to continue to do this, but not as a recruit. How do you guide an athletic oriented kiddo through athletic recruitment in two minutes or less?
Ronnie McKnight:
Can I give a flippant answer?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
Ronnie McKnight:
So if you think that you might want to play a sport, but you reach out to colleges and they pay you no attention, then you just answered the question.
Lee Coffin:
So is the best advice on this one, the coaches will find you, or do you introduce yourself to a coach?
Ronnie McKnight:
It can be a situation where you reach out to an institution and tell them who you are and either provide information about your record or provide times and that they express an interest in you. And so you can definitely play a role in this process. But if you are doing that, every school in America, if you go to the sport, if you go to the athletic pages and you go to your particular sport, there will be a profile page that you can complete. It doesn't always generate an immediate response, but if you are reaching out to programs, you're doing the forum and perhaps you've made some sort of contact with the coach or your coaches made contact for you, if you fall within the realm of students that they are interested in, they will tend to pursue you, and if not, they will not pursue you.
And so I had definitely had students that have explored and found institutions that they were interested in, and then those institutions recruited them. You can talk with a college counselor, you can talk to your coach, and you can also reach out to the colleges. There are rules about when a college can reach out to the student, but a student can reach out to a college more or less at any point. Sometimes those coaches are available to meet with a student if you're visiting the campus. Often that's not possible. And then it is a relationship frequently that the student builds with the athletic program and it runs parallel to the admission process.
Lee Coffin:
Well, that's helpful. Thank you, Ronnie. And so my last question, testing, or in the discovery phase, is it a good practice for students to take some testing in the spring? We're skipping over optional required, that's later. But for this early moment, where does testing enter this conversation?
Sherri Geller:
We are at an area where not every student has to test, but I do usually recommend that students test at least once and that once the spring of junior year, whether ACT or SAT or occasionally both to see which test feels better. Especially at a time where the SAT will now be digital for the first time, some students might take better to that format where others may prefer a pen and pencil, even though the scoring shouldn't, we've been assured won't be changing.
Lee Coffin:
Sherri, just before you skip past that, so that's the first time we've touched digital testing in this podcast. So what do you know about the digital SAT at this early moment? What's your sense as a counselor about what that means for the March, 2024 administration?
Sherri Geller:
So any juniors, current juniors who took the PSAT this fall took a digital version. And at some high schools, they offer the test, the PSAT to sophomores, and it was only digital starting this past October. So most students have had some exposure to what it will be like. But it is a digital test that you take on your own computer, you download an app and you take the test through that. One interesting wrinkle that students will see but they should know is happening behind the scenes is depending on how you do on the first part of the test. It then adapts and you may get harder questions or easier questions for the second part of the test. But you don't know which you're getting. And it's not question by question, it's by section. So the student experience would be the same for every student in the room in terms of the amount of time and the number of questions and things like that. But the test is doing this behind the scenes adaptive thing.
In the end, scores should look very similar to what they've been before. It's still on a 200 to 800 scale per section. It's still the same two sections that we've had. The evidence-based reading and writing and the math. The type of questions are as they've always been for the most part, but it is very different. Taking a test on a computer screen for PSAT, I noticed a lot of students moving a lot faster. I don't know that that yielded different scores or that the questions were different. I just think how people process information, whether they're reading it on a screen or doing it on paper is different. So there's no option. They're calling it right now DSAT for digital, but you don't have the choice. If you take the SAT, it'll now be digital.
Lee Coffin:
So the number two pencil quite literally went in the pencil sharpener and all that's left is the eraser.
Sherri Geller:
Yeah, although an ACT, there's still pen and paper.
Lee Coffin:
ACT is still paper.
Sherri Geller:
And they're talking of that changing as well. But for now, for this current junior class, that'll be the-
Lee Coffin:
Okay. That's helpful. So for listeners, we'll come back to testing a couple of times this season, but just as a get yourself started, start to look at the test dates in the spring and plan to do one. Okay. Ronnie, Sherri, always such a treat to have you join Admissions Beat and offer, every time, such a lively, fast-paced conversation. I could keep going, but I know we are at the boundary of our typical episode. So thank you.
Sherri Geller:
Thank you.
Ronnie McKnight:
Thank you, Lee.
Lee Coffin:
You're welcome. Listeners, next week we will have an encore episode from last spring called "Take an Existential Selfie," where we'll help you think about how to ponder what's important to you. It was a great episode last year, so we're going to share that with you again next week with a new opening. But for now, I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for listening. See you next week.