Season 4: Episode 4 Transcript
Inside the Admissions Process: A Senior Speaks
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid, and this is the Admissions Beat.
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So, in our first few episodes this season, we've been talking about the headlines; we've been talking about checklists for seniors as they move from summer through September towards the deadlines. And the topic that keeps surfacing, as I listen is, seniors in high school have a lot on their plate, and that traffic jam of things to do can make them a little jittery, nervous, stressed. So I thought, let's bring a kid into this conversation. So today I've got a high school senior who is going to have a conversation with me, not so much about his search, but his experience as a junior last year and now a senior going through this process in real time. What's on his mind, what's he hearing from his classmates, and where are we going? So, when we come back, we will meet our avatar for the high school seniors of the world and have a conversation about what's going on in the senior class of 2024. We'll be right back.
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So, we welcome Matt onto Admissions Beat. Matt is a regular listener, which is exciting, and all I will tell you about Matt is he is a senior at a public high school in New England. So that frames it. Matt's looking at selective colleges. He's been touring with his mom and dad up and down the East Coast looking for his future campus, and I invite him on today to have a conversation with me in the most candid way we can about what that feels like. So, Matt, welcome to Admissions Beat.
Matt:
Happy to be here, happy to be here.
Lee Coffin:
How's it feel to represent the high school class of 2024 worldwide?
Matt:
Not going to lie, I'm feeling a little bit of pressure on my shoulders, but I think I'm up for the task.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I think you are too. So, you heard me do the opening and talked about the nervousness that organically lives in this part of your senior year. Does that ring true to you as you hear me say it?
Matt:
Oh yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of excitement, but there's also a lot of excitement that is based in nerves. Everyone's, "I want to see where all my friends go and I'm really nervous about where I'm going to go." I come from a town that's a very competitive school district and trying to get into a selective school or a, quote, unquote, "elite school" is something that's been on my mind throughout high school and it's been on everyone's minds now. It sort of feels like the breaking point of when we're all applying and getting ready to hear back from all these schools. It's very nerve-racking.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So, let's talk about that a little bit. You were a class officer, so you are someone who knows your class and they know you. So, describe your school. What's going on in the classrooms of your suburban public high school in the latter part of September of your senior year? Are people preoccupied with college, is it what you talk about in the lunchroom, or are people doing their own thing but you all know it's happening?
Matt:
Honestly, it's sort of all over the place, because there are people who are more willing to talk about college than others, but we always take our notes, in a lot of classes, we take notes on computers, some classes on paper, and almost every class I'll take a peek over at someone else's screen and a lot of the time they're looking at some school's admissions page. At a lot of times I'm doing the same, I'm checking prompts.
Lee Coffin:
So, wait. Let me just understand that. So, you're in AP calculus and people are checking the Common App prompts?
Matt:
Actually, I take that back, not really the prompts, but they'll be looking at school's admissions pages and just stuff like that.
Lee Coffin:
Why? What do you think drives that kind of antsy-ness?
Matt:
It's such a big time and a lot of pressure is placed on this one moment of applying to schools, and once you're done with your applications, that's it. You're just playing the waiting game, and the moments leading up to that application, people are just really worried about where they're going to go. And honestly, I think myself included, this is something that's rung true for me, is I tend to worry a lot more about where I'm going to go as opposed to formulating the strongest possible application for myself, and I think that generally rings true for most people, because it would be a lot more productive to be working on a Common App essay or working on a supplemental or just having fun giving yourself a break than it is to look at school's acceptance rates and SAT ranges and things like that. But it's like a car crash. You can't really help but look. It's hard to ignore. It's a feeling that's hard to ignore.
Lee Coffin:
No, I know. I hear you say that and it doesn't make me happy, I have to say, as an admission officer, that the process that I lead creates that kind of distraction for the applicants. I know it's true. I mean, here we are on a podcast, I'm trying to help reassure your classmates and their parents to do exactly what you just said, like, "No, no, look away from the car crash. Pay attention to being a senior, the classes you're taking, writing your essay." We'll come back to that, but what's clear as you described it is the process itself dances around your nightmares and says, "You got to do this."
Matt:
Yeah. It's a lot easier to look at the goal than it is to work on the destination, you know?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. All right. In, I think it was last week's episode, or it might've been two weeks ago, one of the guidance counselors said that his seniors were really distracted by two things. Refining the list of where they will apply, and writing the essay. Is that where you see your classmates spending a lot of energy? I mean the goal is what's distracting you, but part of the goal is figuring out, "Where will I apply?" So, how do you feel in the latter part of September as your list starts to come into focus?
Matt:
That's definitely a palpable feeling amongst myself and my peers. Narrowing down that list, you always hear those terms thrown around, like targets, safeties, reaches, stuff like that, and I think the list is important. You got to pay money to apply to a lot of these schools, and it's also where you'll wind up going to college. And I think refining that list is difficult to do because there are so many great schools out there that can give you a great educational opportunity.
Lee Coffin:
So, Matt, where does the itch for an elite outcome originate? Why is it catnip to so many students in suburban high schools like the one you attend as a driver of this college admission process?
Matt:
Coming from a school that's very competitive, a school that does really well in testing and generally sends kids to a lot of, quote, unquote, "elite schools", parents are throwing a bunch of money into test prep, they're paying trainers to make their kids better at sports and they're learning instruments. They're doing all these things, like getting involved in many different ways in school. Doing all of that just to end up at a place that the parent or the kid doesn't really feel like is, quote, unquote, "elite" I think can often be sort of crushing for a student. And that's not really something that I've personally experienced, because my parents have always said college is a really transformative time, but at the end of the day, hard work is going to get you where you want to go and you can get a great education no matter where you choose to go to college. And I think most people ultimately understand that in one way or another, but there's also a lot of work that goes into the application process and you want to see that work come into fruition by attending a elite school.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So, let me ask you, it's going to sound like a simple question, but are you enjoying your college search?
Matt:
I would say the way to describe it isn't necessarily enjoyment, but I would say I'm definitely very cautiously optimistic, because applying to these schools is super stressful, it's a lot of work, but I'm also really excited to see where I'm going to get the opportunity to spend the next four years of my life if, fingers crossed, if I get in somewhere.
Lee Coffin:
Of course you're going to get in. So, to all the listeners, if I can put some lip balm on the worry there, you will get into good places. And I think the point you made earlier about thinking about your list and making sure it's balanced, that's the key ingredient here, is to not overload the list with places that are so selective your odds are low, but to also make sure the places that are foundational or "safety", a word I don't like to use, but people understand what I mean, that that set of places is appealing. I say often, "safety" doesn't mean the place I would never go. "Safety" means a place I have a good shot at being offered a seat and I'd be happy and excited to be a student there. So, I think balancing that is really important, but you're going to have a happy outcome.
But I think part of the question about are you enjoying this is there's a lot of self-discovery that happens as you move from your junior year to your senior fall, to the deadlines and ultimately to making a decision about where you'll go. I mean, I know you have visited a bunch of places. What's resonating with you as you go on tours? What advice would you have for classmates who maybe haven't done it yet, or you're a junior in high school just starting out? What have you learned about the admission process and about yourself by the act of going to some of these campuses and kind of soaking it in?
Matt:
I would definitely say to people who are starting the process of touring schools, always make sure that you find a tour guide with similar interests or maybe a similar personality to you, whether those interests be academic or extracurricular. You want to try to find someone who probably is having a similar experience in college to the one that you would hope to have. And also, really try to pay attention to the academic information that a school is going to provide for you, because the most information and the easiest way that you're going to be able to get information about a school academically is going to be when you tour there.
Lee Coffin:
So, as you're touring, what I witness on my campus is this tango between an applicant and a parent, where you're seeing the campus through very different perspectives. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the dynamic seniors have to navigate between your college search and the one a parent might imagine for you as their child?
Matt:
My parents have been very, very supportive of me throughout my college application process, which I've been really thankful for. And I think a lot of times the number one concern for parents is the safety of their child in college, and I think every parent would really want their child to go close to home. So, that's one thing I've tried to talk with my parents about, is I kind of want to be like a little bird leaving the nest, I want to try to visit new places, I've always wanted to try to go to college in a warmer climate, and I wouldn't mind staying in New England because it's awesome here too. But talking to parents about location and trying to work that stuff out, and then also different academic opportunities. Things I've noticed on tours is a lot of time parents tend to ask more questions about academics than their kids do, or they'll sort of ask questions that they think their kid needs to hear the answer to. Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
No, that's funny. And so tell me a little bit, let's go back to distance, because I think this is a very common student topic, like, "How close or far from home do I want to be?" And sometimes the tours are a clue. You have to drive or you have to get on a plane and you realize, "This is a different proposition than I understood it to be." As you've wandered around the East Coast, has that clarified itself for you?
Matt:
I did a trip in the Mid-South, like Virginia, North Carolina, that area, back in February, and it was really interesting getting to visit a lot of the schools in that area, because a lot of times people tend to group the South into one giant area, one giant region, but there are also very different parts of the South and different locations where a lot of these schools are. It's very different to get to a school like say Georgetown in D.C. than it is to get to a school like Washington and Lee in Virginia. I mean, D.C. and Virginia are right next to each other, but those schools are pretty far apart.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. No, I mean that's a very practical topic. It's part of the search, it's the logistics of getting yourself to a campus regularly, and it's not the reason you're going to pick a place, but it is not something you don't notice, and your search starts to sort itself. But let's go back to parents, and not just you, but your peers, how are you all managing that parental hopefulness that you have a happy outcome? So, how are your peers kind of managing this parent dance?
Matt:
Different friends have different degrees of parental involvement within their application process. I know a lot of kids who have parents who are very involved and are like, "We really want you to go to this school or this school, and we don't think you should apply there. You're too good for there." Maybe even, "You're not good enough for there." Then there are also people whose parents are taking a more hands-off approach, letting their kid work it out for themselves, but also still backing their kid and saying, "We'll support you no matter where you go, but we want you to decide and you to find where you go."
For the kid, there are definitely advantages and disadvantages to both of those, because if you have parents who are really pressuring you to go to a certain school or go to a certain level of school or certain type of school, there's the pressure of not wanting to let your parents down, wanting to make your parents happy and wanting to get into a school like that to impress them, and I think that puts a lot of pressure on the student. And then on the flip side, if you're trying to just sort of navigate it, even if your parents are saying that they're there to support you, it's nice to have a helping hand or someone sort of guiding you saying, "Hey, maybe you should take a look at this. Maybe you should take a look at that," throughout the college process. So, I think just reiterating, there are very different levels of parental involvement that I've seen. They both have their pros and cons.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I've heard other students say the very poignant point you made of making your parent happy, and that that is part of the stress of seeing how this process plays out. I had a student once say, "I don't want to disappoint my parents. They put a lot of energy into my upbringing and this is a proof point." And I said, "Ooh, your parents are going to be proud of you wherever you land." But I understand that that's something that is very present in the minds of a lot of high school seniors.
Matt:
Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, and I think the other point you made around support is also important, and I think for juniors listening and junior parents, one of the things I advise when I do parent programs is ask your children, what's the proper role to play in support? If this was the Academy Awards, the applicant is in the Best Actor category and the parent is in the Supporting Actor category, and in what way can you be supportive is a really important conversation to have had. What's been the worst part of applying to college, besides the stress?
Matt:
One thing is just the competitive aspect of it all, because I have a lot of friends that I know who I found out are applying to the same schools as me, and it's difficult not to get caught up and start thinking like, "Oh my gosh, this kid is just the perfect applicant. There's no way I'm going to be able to compete with him at a school," and I think turning the admissions process into a competition really just takes a toll on you mentally. And another thing you see on social media, I keep seeing these videos of this guy who goes over, he's like, "This was the most incredible college application I've ever seen of all time. It's like the most impressive. This kid had a 4.7 GPA, a 1600 SAT," and he'll show the schools that the kid got into. And despite this kid having a seemingly perfect application, perfect SAT score, he started a successful nonprofit, he's doing internships, he's involved in his community, he has community service hours, and still not getting into some of these colleges, you sort of start thinking like, "Oh my gosh, what are these colleges looking for?"
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Matt:
That's one thing that can get really stressful.
Lee Coffin:
My advice there to you and to anyone in your peer group is "tune it out." And I know that's easier said than done, but sometimes I worry about the role of social media in the college admission process because it introduces too many voices into your thinking that might have nothing to do with the way you're understanding where you are as a senior in high school and where you might go, and what you just said hits me as the social media plants doubt in your thinking, and I'm doing this podcast to erase the doubt and say be optimistic. Keep yourself focused on what feels right as I visit these places, and don't get dragged along because your peers are all saying, "Oh, this is what we're doing." And do you see that happening as we inch closer to early decision? Do you see your classmates starting to talk about, "I have to find somewhere to apply," or has that not hit your peer group?
Matt:
Honestly, because I come from a very competitive town, people have sort of been thinking about college for so long, and I think a lot of people, if they know that they want to apply early decision somewhere, they know where they're going to go. But I also definitely still see a lot of kids who sort of feel the pressure. They're like, "Oh, I'm not going to get into a great school if I don't apply early decision somewhere and I have to apply early decision somewhere. Ah!" You know?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, and it all kind of wraps around itself and all of a sudden you're like, "I feel stuck because I've got too many things to think about."
Matt:
Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
So, I asked you a minute ago what was the worst part. What's the best part?
Matt:
I'm just really excited to find out where I'm going to go, and also just finding out where my friends are going to go. I'm happy to say I have friends both in my town and out of my town and I know they're all really smart kids and they have a lot to offer to whatever school they're going to go to, and just being able to see all the great things that my peers are going to do at whatever school they wind up going to, and also finding out where I'm going to go to and have a blast in the next four years, that's going to be really exciting, because I know it's going to be difficult now, but I think in the end everyone's all going to be breathing a big sigh of relief. It's going to be...
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. No, I think that's right. And as I was listening to that answer, Matt, I'm thinking about you, one of your many roles is as a camp counselor, and I was going to invite you to rally your troops. What words of encouragement do you want to share by way of counseling them towards the next part of senior year and to the college choice?
Matt:
We're all going to be fine. It doesn't really matter where you go, or even there are people who don't even go to college that do incredible things. It's all about just going somewhere, having fun, making connections, working hard, and no matter where you do that, whether it's in college or in the workforce, no matter what you do after high school, you're going to be fine if you just work hard, live in the moment and try to have fun. Because where you go to school, it's not the be-all, end-all. It's just four years of your life.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Matt:
Which may seem like a lot, but a lifetime is a heck of a lot longer than four years.
Lee Coffin:
That's very wise. Before we wrap, I want to give you a chance to turn the conversation around and ask me a question or two. So, you're in this Zoom with a dean of admission. What would a senior in high school want someone from my seat to share?
Matt:
One thing that I think seniors are wondering is how do we seem... All of our essays, we're all supposed to sort of brag about ourselves and explain why we should go somewhere, and what do you think is the best way to do that without being superficial?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, excellent question, and next week we're talking about just this topic, about how do you write your story? How do you use the Common App or whichever app you're completing as an invitation for introduction? And the trick of it, Matt, is to write about yourself without getting caught in the catch-22 of what do they want me to say, versus what do I want to say? And before you write any answer to a short or long essay prompt, I would advise any essay writer to just sketch out an outline of who am I trying to introduce? What part of me do I want this reader to meet by the way I answer this question?
And some of the best essays have been on the smallest topics. Having a cup of tea with your grandma, writing about the Red Sox, thinking about why my parents have different political points of view and how I referee a house where they don't always agree when they watch the news. I mean, none of these things are giant topics. All of them are interesting. And so I think that part of the file doesn't have a wrong answer, it's what is it you want me to know as I connect your story to your transcript? And the best essays are the ones that help me say, "Oh, I just met someone like I would in a conversation."
Matt:
Yeah. All right, question number two. If you could give any one piece of advice to a high school senior for the waiting period after they submit their applications, after they finally finish sending in wherever their regular decision applications are going, what would it be?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So, you referred to this earlier as the waiting game, and it's interesting that you went there, Matt, because there's all this hoopla that takes you from today to the deadline, and then this very strange thing happens, and you've put your finger right on it, which is you hit submit on the Common App, whoosh, it goes off into cyberspace, and then you do wait. And there will be weeks of waiting, and my advice during that period when the application is completed and the decision has not yet been shared is to just get back to your senior year and wrap your arms around 12th grade, and take a time out almost. I mean, just stop thinking about this. Stop anticipating it.
It's coming. There will be decisions that start to pop late February into March and certainly by the last week of March, but that interim between the deadline and the decision release is an oasis of sorts. You can go there and just say, "I don't need to do anything except be a senior." You do need to keep your grades up. I mean, that's the piece of this that keeps going, where your transcript continues to build and we get midyear grades that go into your file. For many students, there's a moment where you have an interview, and we'll come back to that in a future episode too, where a lot of alumni interviewing happens after the deadline. So, that's another type of storytelling.
But the bigger topic during the waiting game, as you call it, is just let it go and stop talking about it. Again, easier for me to say it than for you to do it, but there's really no reason to keep picking at this topic once you've made the choice of, "I've applied and I have nothing to do until the decisions come, and I've got a couple that I need to assess and then make a decision." So, eat ice cream, play some games, go to class, go on a date. Do all the things 12th graders are supposed to do.
Matt:
Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
Well, Matt, thank you for joining me on the Admissions Beat and for sharing your insights on life in a suburban town in the fall of a senior year. I think a lot of listeners were smiling as they listened to your story, and I think you also gave some parents some food for thought to think about, like, "Oh, this is what my child is experiencing. Maybe not sharing with me, but this is what's going on when I'm not looking." So, I appreciate your candor, and the Admissions Beat is cheering for you as you complete your own application, not to Dartmouth, which is why you came on. This is a Dartmouth-free space for Matt. But good luck as you finish the rest of your senior fall.
Matt:
Yeah, thank you very much for having me. It was a blast.
Lee Coffin:
You're welcome. Okay. Bye, Matt.
Matt:
All right. Bye, Lee.
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Lee Coffin:
So, there's an old saying, "From the mouths of babes." And Matt's not a babe, I mean, he's a big, strapping 17-year-old guy, but I really appreciated the authenticity of a senior's voice in this moment, and it's a reminder to me as an admission officer and a dean to think about the way the students in my pool are experiencing the lead up to an application and what preoccupies them. And to parents, I think if we can hold hands virtually and just help turn down the Bunsen burner in that chemistry lab called college admission, I think it helps the students, the students we love when they're in our homes and the students we are serving when we're college and school people, to get through this process.
So, next week we'll be back with a conversation about storytelling. Matt mentioned it, so we're going to come back and dig into the idea that the essay, short form, long form, is a moment to put your fingers on a keyboard and bring some narrative into the data that populates a college application. For now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for listening.