Season 4: Episode 3 Transcript
An Admissions Checklist for Jittery Seniors, Part 2
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid, and welcome to the Admissions Beat.
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Hello again, everybody. We have part two of our Admission Checklist for Nervous Seniors. It picks up where last week's conversation left off. And I'm joined once again by Darryl Tiggle, Director of College Counseling at the Friends School of Baltimore, Erica Rosales, Executive Director of College Match in Los Angeles, and Kate Boyle Ramsdell, Director of College Counseling at Noble and Greenough School in Dedham, Mass. Everyone, thanks for joining me on this podcast.
And I guess an interesting place to start this conversation might be piggybacking on our season premiere, when Elena Hicks from SMU and I reflected on all the admission headlines that have been appearing all across the media all summer long. And I'm wondering, as people in schools and programs working directly with kids and parents, are the headlines on the minds of your families this fall? Or is the news, whether it was the Supreme Court ruling about race-conscious admissions or the question of legacy, or testing, or any of this— is this something that's distracting your seniors as they open their senior fall? Or are the headlines distracting to people like me and not so much to the families in your schools?
Darryl Tiggle:
I don't think my children and families are distracted, but we're trying our very best to make sure that they're well-informed about these changes and about the sort of evolution of things that happen in admissions. And we've always tried to do that, but one of the things that's made us, especially, I think, conscious about it, is that we're a super diverse and we've become more and more diverse, especially over the last several years. And we're a community that kind of pays attention to that stuff. So it's a smaller Quaker school, where it's something that they really try to, I think, be on top of things that are going on in culture. So we try to make sure our students are understanding it, in terms of how it might manifest in admissions. And when we're doing student-parent events, we communicate things that we are eloquent enough to give them good intel on, to make sure they're on top of it.
Erica Rosales:
So for us, for College Match, and College Match is in Los Angeles, in California, California, affirmative action was outlawed in 1996. This decision came as a shock maybe to me and my family—very personal. But I think, for College Match, it's not something that's distracting our students. It's something that College Match is used to working with. All of our students apply to the UCs and get into the UCs. It really did put the responsibility back on the students to talk about their context. So the conversations that our staff and our volunteers have had is like, "How do we make sure that students are comfortable with talking about their context and they understand how important it is?"
And then, the other piece, because we do work with cohorts at high school sites, and we like to think as ourselves as supplementing the services that the high schools offer is, "How can we help our schools tell their context better?" Because we are working with public high schools, where oftentimes, the counseling staff doesn't have the time or the resources to update their profiles. So we have been in talks about how do we provide those opportunities to give them the information and maybe what types of statistics they should be highlighting to provide the context? So that we help more students, beyond our College Match students.
Kate Boyle Ramsdell:
Erica, in a fairly different community, it's interesting that we're having some of the same conversations. And we work with kids, kind of like Darryl does, across the socioeconomic spectrum, across the sort of racial and background spectrum. And I think one of the real challenges for some of our kids, and this is a little bit more about their day-to-day with their peers, is where people might be making assumptions about what they believe and also, where they might be not wanting to have to write an essay that offers context, because there are lots of other parts about their life that they would like to share.
But then, some real fear that, "If I don't do that, I may not open doors for myself, that if a school continues to seek an interesting and diverse community, they might otherwise be interested in my candidacy holistically." So it is… I think it's going to be, I know we've seen it happen in California and what it's done to the state system, in terms of its demographics, but I do have some hope that, at places like Dartmouth, where Lee is and people can truly do a holistic review, that that will remain and that kids will be read as whole people.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Yeah, no, I asked this question, because I did a program last night at a high school for senior parents, and these questions came up. They were very distracted by the headlines, and I was trying to do a, "Here's how an application gets reviewed." And they kept raising their hand and saying, "I read yesterday," fill in the blank. And so, it was on my mind that parents especially are consumers of news. And the news on this admissions beat is pretty active right now. And so, it's helpful, as we start talking about checklists for senior fall, I would almost say try and tune out, not this podcast, but the admissions beat through the national media, because it seems to be a pretty steady source of storylines that might get you more off track than on track, as your list and your applications come together.
Kate Boyle Ramsdell:
And just to plug for that episode, I thought you all did a great job, having listened to it, of laying it out clearly and thoughtfully. So if listeners haven't listened to it, it's quite good.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, little promo. So senior year, schedules, particularly in the selective admission zone, colleges expect students to be pursuing a rigorous course of study, usually five classes per term, if not more. Does that count? Why does the senior year matter on the academic side?
Kate Boyle Ramsdell:
I think it can matter for a bunch of different reasons. One is, sometimes for students, they're taking maybe the most rigorous schedule that they've taken in high school. And so, it's an opportunity for them to show a college that they can do work at that next level and do it well. For some other students, they might have had a rougher start or some hiccups earlier on in their high school career, that maybe aren't totally indicative of the kind of student that's going to show up at the college. And I think, even though your whole record still counts, I think, sometimes, I'll say to families, kids have struggled in a high level physics class in junior year. "Well, is this just a blip on the radar or is this a pattern? Are we now at the point where you've hit that quant wall?"
So I think, for a lot of kids, they're growing up and they're changing and their brains are developing and they're just getting better and better at this school thing all the time. And so, you want to try to see that upward trajectory. I think it also might send up a different kind of flag we could talk about, if it's been smooth sailing all along and then, senior year, you just start to kind of fall off and it doesn't seem like you're as engaged and things aren't going as well. And a college might want to know why that is.
Lee Coffin:
Maybe this is not surprising, but colleges ask for updates. So you've got a transcript in the file that runs through the end of 11th grade, and those are final grades from nine, 10, to 11, in whatever format your high school puts a grade on a transcript. Or sometimes, there's no grades, and it's more of an evaluative comment. But we have a full complete set of information through the end of your junior year, and then, we move into this rollercoaster called senior year. And your grades are works in progress. So we get progress reports. So in the early round, we will ping your college counselor and say, "Hey, can we see the first quarter, first trimester, first nine weeks, some snapshot of how this senior year is starting to play out?"
And then, we come back, and there's a formal part of the Common App, the midyear school report, which comes in with your midyear grades. Sometimes, you get third quarter in March. And then, here's the big surprise, we get your final grades after you enroll. So sometime between May 1st and the end of your senior year, your final grade report comes in and we look at it. So this work in progress from September through the diploma is something just to be aware that your academic performance is something we're paying attention to, the way it builds off of 11. What else, Darryl? Does that sound right?
Darryl Tiggle:
Yeah, it sounds right. And I think, with our students, in terms of their perspective on the senior classes, I'm chuckling, because I'm looking at an email from one of my top students, and she's taking six majors. And she's like, "Mr. Tiggle, do you think I could possibly drop Calc 2?" Because she doesn't love Calc 2, she's just taking it, because she wants it to look good on her college admissions application. So they're at that crossroads. She's a dancer and linguist, but she's in Calc 2 and Advanced Physics. She's like, "Do I need to be doing all this?" And I think my answer to her is, "Not all this, but everything that you're doing, you need to be doing well through this journey." So I think it's that. They want to make sure they're taking the right things, that they're taking things that they can get good grades in, and things that's lifegiving. So continuing to do well has always been our message also.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, senior year counts. How about teacher recs? So lots of teachers, my sister included among them, a high school English teacher, will say to me, she used to teach junior year English, and she said, "I've got 20 something letters of recommendation from everybody in last year's class." So how should students be thinking about recommendations? Who is the best person to fill out that recommendation on behalf of a student? Erica, what's your guidance around recommendations?
Erica Rosales:
So once again, this is where the student has a little bit of power. So you know where you have shined the brightest, and it's not necessarily the class where you got the A+. We know that some subjects come easier to us than others, but it could be in that English class. And I'm using that example, because my daughter is a science kid and she really does not like her English classes. But she tries really hard, and she goes in and she goes to the office hours. And because of that, she's gotten to know that teacher really well. So it's really important that you do get a teacher from the social science and then, the math and science. So you want to cover the core, but it's a teacher who's going to be able to use great words to describe you and to describe you in that classroom.
What type of student are you? Are you a student who's going to go above and beyond, who is curious, who, even though Calc 2 isn't your subject, but you're going to continue and you're going to work hard and you're going to show that ethic to make sure that you're putting your best foot forward? But also, it's really important that students, I always remind my College Match kids, you're courteous and you give people the time to write you that letter. So hopefully, people have already asked, students have already asked for that letter, because we are in September, we're in the middle of the year.
So you want to look at your junior year teachers or maybe even your senior year teachers, that you're trying to get to know, and making sure that you ask in person, but also, follow up with an email and send reminders. And you can ask the teacher and also kind of prompt the teacher a little bit. "This is why I'm asking you. I'm asking you, because I did really well in this project that you assigned." So once again, making sure that you are telling a different part of your story. So you have the power over the narrative, but the teacher can really talk about you as an academic student.
Lee Coffin:
And if this is helpful, one of the ways we've come to talk about teacher recommendations inside the Dartmouth admission process is the phrase "classroom presence" and "impact." For a student, think about who can best describe your presence in a classroom. And as you look at your list, the smaller the place, the more important each seat is in that place. So presence, if you're in a student body like the one I represent, where most of our classes are 15, 14 students or smaller, classroom presence is important. How do you participate? How do you listen? How do you collaborate? How do you raise your hand respectfully, as opposed to being the time vampire that's always talking and everybody's like, "Hey, I am trying to get in too?" But classroom presence is another way of thinking about whether a recommendation shares with us. And I would just say to the teachers out there listening, who channel my sister's question to me, which was, "Does this matter?"
It matters a lot. The recommendations from teachers are maybe the unsung heroes of selective college applications, where those voices that animate a transcript and say, "This B+ represents this." I've got recs over the years, where A+s don't translate into really interesting recommendations, and a B on the transcript syncs up with a deliciously interesting recommendation from a teacher who says, "I'm a hard grader. This student performed exceptionally well, and I want to give testimony to that." Erica, I'm curious. So you've worked at College Match for many years, and now, you've got a daughter, who's a senior in high school, who's living this in real time. And how does that syn with your professional identity and your mom identity: "Now that I'm seeing it through the eyes of a kid who lives in my house?"
Erica Rosales:
Oh my goodness. So because I'm living it and I get to see how she's reacting to it, and obviously, I've done this for so long, I feel like, by the virtue of osmosis or something, she has all this expertise. And she does. She's heard all this great stuff. For some reason, I was delusional, and I thought that it would be less stressful for her. But I just have to remember to give all of my students grace. It is stressful. It is such a stressful process, because she told me this. She's like, "It's my first adult decision. It's like where I go to college is my first adult decision, and I am losing my childhood."
Darryl Tiggle:
Oh god.
Erica Rosales:
And obviously, I don't always have those conversations with my students or I don't see that they've come to those realizations, but it's tough and you have to give them the space to have those feelings. And the other part of it, that I am appreciating more, is how much, as a society, we've romanticized this whole process. And so, it makes it very difficult for students to actually hear the pragmatic advice. I think we've given great advice today, but even then, somebody's going to listen to this and say, "Yeah, well, even though the stats say this, I'm still going to put all this time and energy into this."
And it's because we have romanticized the college application and college going process so much. And I see it. It's happening before my eyes. And part of my challenge is to just provide the space and listen and give her the hug when she wants the hug. I'm not the person who's going to tell her, "This is what you should be doing." And I'm allowing myself to be led through the process. And I think modeling that we all need help and that we all should take the help that is provided to us when available.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, that's a great segue to one of my last questions, which is for parents. A lot of our listeners are the parents of the student on this journey. How can we reassure our parent friends about the senior fall and what's unfolding? So much of the work sits on the student's desk, laptop. How do you guide parents to be helpful? I love what Eric just said, be led along this journey. Some people let that happen more readily than others, but what's the wisdom, Kate and Darryl, to the eager parents out there, or the worried parents at there, who want to play more of a role than their child might want or they're just looking for some help around "How do I keep things on track?"
Darryl Tiggle:
The thing that I tell my parents who say, "Mr. Tiggle, what can I be doing? What should I be doing for my child in this process?" And I go, "The two things, the two biggest things, make sure you're having a conversation around your financial wherewithal for this process, and to the extent that you can, please get them onto college campuses. Bring them to colleges, so they can try them on for size. And then, maybe talk about college on those trips, on those road trips, in the airport, what have you." The day to day, if they're at my school, my team's talking about it with them, their teachers are talking about it with them.
It might get to overload them. If they're not getting as much support, check in with them and find out where they are in the process. If they don't have a college counseling team or College Match and you know your child is a bright student who needs some help in the process, please do engage them. But if you know that they're already up and running and they're doing the right things, try to be one of the people that minimizes the stress and anxiety for them. Be the anxiety minimizer. Get them to campus, and let them know how much we can afford to send you to college with.
Lee Coffin:
So any last tips? Anything I didn't cover as a checklist for our nervous seniors?
Darryl Tiggle:
And I know this is hard to get your arms around right now, but make sure you think about this, please have some fun with this process. Please have some fun, because the thing that you're about to go and do, it's going to be awesome. And you can only go to one place. Even if you got into all the colleges that you applied to, you can only go to one. So make sure that you're sort of looking at that goal of enrolling in college next fall, engage this process, have fun, and let the world know how wonderful you are.
Lee Coffin:
I'm smiling, because when I worked with Darryl, every day, around five of 12, I'd hear that big booming voice wandering around the hallway, going, "Hey, kids, let's go to lunch. When are we having...?" That playfulness that he carries with him as a college counselor has been part of his persona for so long, but he's right, having fun with this process. And I said this in last week's episode, owning your senior year and enjoying the moment of being 17 or 18 is not to be overlooked. But Erica, any tips I missed?
Erica Rosales:
Well, I want to add to the having fun. You want to have fun your senior year, because what you'll talk about when you're 40 something years old, right? You're going to remember these great things. But one thing that's happening now that you can do is, especially if you're at one of your high schools, I'm sure, you have admission officers going around and visiting high schools. So that's happening for us here in LA, where we help our high schools set up visits with admission reps. Show up. Show up, because it goes back to the beginning, part of refining your list, making sure that you've done all of your research. So meeting somebody, because this is a human process, meeting an admission officer, who might be reading your application, might provide you some good insights and will give you maybe a little upper hand, right? Because they'll put a person to an application.
Lee Coffin:
Kate, want to be the closer?
Kate Boyle Ramsdell:
I'm thinking about a lot of things. Everything you all have said is great. One is not admonishing the adults or the parents really, in this case, of kids' lives, but love the kids you have and not the kids you wish you had. I think that's critical. And then, I think, for kids, taking this long view, and there's a lot of research out there that says the thing that leads to the happiest life is not once you have the resources you need, to have shelter and food and all of those things. It's really about the depth of connections that you have with the people in your life. And fundamentally, good connections through a lifetime do lead to happiness and fulfillment, but actually also to a longer life for many people. And so, I worry that, when kids see each other as competition or don't get into their senior year, have fun on their teams and their classes and their bands and their dance groups and in their jobs, and connect with the communities that they're around, they totally shortchange themselves. So I'm trying to beat that drum this year.
Lee Coffin:
Beat that drum, Kate. Well, the three of you, as always, have had such a fun, lively conversation. I hope our listeners take comfort in the idea that they've got lots of good advice, they've got time to map it out. We've given them a toolkit to be practical, on point, and organized. Always a treat to welcome you to the podversation on Admission Beat. And thanks so much for joining me on this Admission Checklist for Nervous Seniors.
Kate Boyle Ramsdell:
Thanks, Lee.
Darryl Tiggle:
Thanks so much. That was fun.
Erica Rosales:
Thank you.
Lee Coffin:
You're welcome. Next week, we'll be back with another episode of Admissions Beat. For now, I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for listening.