Season 4: Episode 10 Transcript
Fifty Podversations! An Admissions Beat Anniversary Highlight Reel
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire. I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's dean of admissions and financial aid, and this is a special anniversary episode of the Admissions Beat.
(music)
Hello, everyone. Somehow this podcast reached the 50th episode milestone a couple of weeks ago. And we thought, wouldn't it be fun to pause and take a look back, and to wander through those episodes from the fall of 2021 to the present and pull out some highlights that struck us as important conversations, insights, something that struck a nerve with one of us? And to join me on this anniversary episode are Charlotte Albright. The long time... actually the only.. producer I've ever had on the pod. Charlotte, hi.
Charlotte Albright:
Hello. Nice to be here.
Lee Coffin:
You were with me from the first second of the first episode and every one since then.
Charlotte Albright:
Absolutely, it's been a joy.
Lee Coffin:
And Luke Grayson, a Dartmouth Junior from Seaham, England who appeared on an episode in season three, "Take an Existential Selfie: International Edition," is back. And Luke, hi, welcome back to the Admissions Beat.
Luke Grayson:
Hi, it's great to be back. It feels like yesterday I was on the other episode.
Lee Coffin:
It does feel like it was. And for listeners, Luke was tapped as the student ears and eyes on these first 50 episodes and we asked him to wander back through all 50, pull some highlights for us that really resonate with you as, not just a student in college now, but going back to your own roots as a high school student in northern England. You're in a public state school, you're the first in your family to go to college, thinking about the U.S. when nobody in your neighborhood ever did that. And so for listeners who might be outside the U.S. but also for just listeners anywhere, Luke is our tour guide through the first 50 episodes of Admissions Beat. And as you listen to it all, Luke, what really jumped out at you as you were pulling these highlights?
Luke Grayson:
Oh, it was super interesting for me because I was going back through these episodes and when I first started I wasn't really sure what I was looking for. I was like, "Oh, we have this podcast, we talk about so many things." But I feel like the central nexus for me that I start to touch on and all these different points was almost like this journey that you've go on through the process as a person, as a human being, going from not really understanding or not really fully knowing where you're going to end up, to almost not just finding the place that you're going to end up, but also finding who you are as a person and who you're going to be for next four years at that institution. And so that was one of the most interesting parts for me, was this process of the search, not just as a college search, but almost like looking within yourself.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I love that because you're right, it is a journey. I've used "existential" several times on episodes and say to students, "Look in the mirror and take a selfie. Think about who you are, where you're going, what you want. You may not have answers to all those questions yet, but this journey will help reveal that to you." And I hope the episodes that we're about to highlight from the last three years will do that for our listeners. And Charlotte, as you tee this up with Luke and me, tell us what's going to happen.
Charlotte Albright:
What's going to happen is, Luke, you made great selections and I was so pleased that you actually had more than we had time for. That means that you really saw a lot in these episodes or heard a lot. So what I did is, I made a "greatest hits" CD here. And I'm going to play each clip for you and then I'm going to pause a bit and you're going to try to remember back, "why did I think about that? And what did I think about that? Did I know it at the time as it just happened to resonate in the meantime?" We won't talk a lot about each one and I will, at the very top, introduce our cast of this Broadway musical, all of the people that made these pieces of advice resonate with you. But really Luke, you've been a shadow producer for this. You're the one who selected the content. Lee hasn't heard it yet, and you're the one who's going to talk us through it. So Lee, should I read the cast of characters?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, let's introduce the cast of this Broadway play called Admissions Beat.
Charlotte Albright:
The chorus line. Sherri Geller, I think comes in as the co-director of college counseling at Gann Academy in Waltham, Massachusetts. We've heard from her a couple times. Mary Pat McMahon is now vice provost and vice president of student affairs at Duke. Then comes Ronnie McKnight; he is associate director of college counseling at The Paideia School in Atlanta. Stuart Schmill is the dean of admissions and student financial services at MIT. He's going to talk to us about testing. Emma Johnson, class of 2024 at Dartmouth, spoke to us in an episode where students are looking back and saying "what we wish we knew at the time." Dino Koff, director of financial aid at Dartmouth, we've just heard from him recently. He's a repeat customer. Yehalah Fernando, class of '26. Luke, she was in the international selfie episode and you were also in that, so you get to talk to yourself.
Finally, Darryl Tiggle, director of college counseling at Friends School in Baltimore. So there is our cast and I think I'm going to start us right off and the first person you're going to hear is somebody you've just heard from. Are you ready for the clip?
Lee Coffin:
Place is more abstract than programming people. It has different interpretations. Place can be literal, geography, architecture, rural, cosmopolitan, woodsy chic, cows, pigeons, campus quads, crowds, distance from your parents, stadiums. You get the idea. Or a place can be a vibe and vibes are so important but really hard to capture. There's a key question that you have to answer for yourself as you decide where you will apply. And I'm not talking about, can I get in? Don't ignore that one, but don't start with it. Instead, focus on this question, can you see yourself here?
Charlotte Albright:
"Can you see yourself here?" Lee asks. And this is in the very beginning of the search as we're making our list of colleges. Lee often talks about program people and place, and here he is talking about place. What does that mean to you, Luke?
Luke Grayson:
Well, I mean, I think there's a lot in that to unpack, but I think it's this idea of place as being a multifaceted existential... I hate to use that word so many times, but existential non-tangible thing, right? We often think of places like, do I want to be in a city? Do I want to be by the beach? Do I want to be in the woods? And all of those things are extremely relevant obviously for this school specifically, this is in a very specific place in the woods, in rural New Hampshire. But at the same time, place is a vibe, I thought was such a powerful idea. This idea that there are so many things about a school that differentiate it that you can't just see on a website or on a poster board or on an image, that you really have to almost find some direct primary way of experiencing like speaking to students or listening to this podcast or reading a blog.
And I like the idea that as much as obviously one of the most important things is figuring out, is this a place I could get in? It's also a case of just because I can get into this place, is it the right space for me to be in?
Lee Coffin:
That's such an important point Luke just made. The only thing I would add is the idea that this sense of place that each student works through— it's a feeling and it touches your gut, your soul, your heart more than your head. And that trips up a lot of students because they think I have to have a logical analytical reason, and place is in a different space. It's more feel and touch than think. And I think Luke just captured that really well.
Luke Grayson:
I think as well, it's unique to each person as well, right?
Lee Coffin:
Yes.
Luke Grayson:
I have a different place in this college campus to every other person here, and that's one of the beautiful things.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Charlotte Albright:
Great. Well, I have to say that that was a perfect place to start. I think we now hear from Sherri Geller. As you recall, she's from Gann Academy in Waltham and she's very practical. So she talks about making the list and how many colleges should be on it. And as Lee often says, most people put too many on there. So here's what Sherri thinks.
Sherri Geller:
My starting point is usually eight. Some lists can still be only five and some should be 10 or 11. I don't usually believe in lists that are too much longer than that, but occasionally there's a reason for that too. With eight, you have the opportunity to divide it in lots of different ways. If you want to have lots of choices, maybe your eight is a range where five or six of them are pretty likely for admission, and then a few are more reaches. If you say, "No, no, no, I want to have several of those highly selective schools." Then maybe you'll have three or four of those, but then your other four represent some places that might be a better match academically.
Charlotte Albright:
So Luke, how many places did you put on your list?
Luke Grayson:
So I was on probably the larger end. I was on around 10 to 11, I would say. Although I will say going through the certain trust program that I went through, it was a little bit more regimented, it's how I applied. But it was also a case of even what I realized when I was making that list and after I'd submitted those applications, yes, my list had 11 on it, but I really could have just applied to seven or eight. There were seven or eight on there that I'd really looked into and then another three that I just threw on there because—why not?
Lee Coffin:
Talk a little bit more about that, Luke, because I think that's how lists balloon from eight to 12 to 20, is people say, "Why not?" Or I've had a lot of parents say, "Oh, we know the odds are long, but let's see what happens." And my college counselor friends will always say, "We know what's going to happen, but go ahead, try it." So how did those extra three wander onto your list?
Luke Grayson:
Well, because I feel like as a prospective applicant, I think you're exactly right, you have this thing of, "Oh, I'll just shoot my shot. There's no harm done." But what you often don't realize when you're at that point in time is there is to a degree an impact of expanding your list just in terms of how split your focus is. Because it's not just a case of pressing a button to submit an application, it's preparing all of the materials you want to send off, the essays you want to answer, preparing for any interviews or whatever that might come up. I do think that at that point in time, it's so easy as a prospective applicant to go, "You know what? There's no harm done. Might as well submit it." But what you don't realize is quite often if you had just dedicated yourself to those core eight or core seven, you would've been able to put so much more focus into those choices.
Lee Coffin:
Excellent. For listeners, especially seniors who are right on the eve of this deadline moment, Luke just gave you such an important insight about the reason a focused list serves you much better than a bigger list where you're throwing for the fence. And in doing so, you lose track of your purpose and those supporting elements like interviews, like essays, just making sure all the deadlines get met are much easier to do when you're shooting for Sherri's suggested eight than when you wander up to the upper limits of the common apps allowed number.
Charlotte Albright:
And even within those eight or 10, you're still going to be narrowing it down in the end. And so Mary Pat McMahon says one of my favorite things about how to narrow it down. Let me play it for you.
Mary Pat McMahon:
When you start thinking about where you're going to live, how you're going to learn, who you're going to meet and where your undergraduate experience is going to take you, where do you get to bring your messy authentic self?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Charlotte Albright:
Luke, did you bring your messy authentic self to Dartmouth?
Luke Grayson:
Oh, exceedingly so. Exceedingly so. I do believe you look at a place and you're like, "Oh, I could imagine myself." Then you always imagine the perfect personification of your future self. And you really got to think, how am I on a day-to-day basis? Am I really getting up at 6:00 AM and studying until 9:00 PM? No, I want to be somewhere where I can be me, right?
Lee Coffin:
Only thing I'll add to Mary Pat's point about being your messy, authentic self. It's true, you have to bring you to the campus, but as you introduce yourself through your application, you also want to be authentic and messy in whatever playful way that plays through in the way you tell your story. So don't create a cartoon character named Luke who is applying to college. Introduce yourself as you are and let us meet you that way. And those are the applications that resonate best.
Luke Grayson:
And if I can add a little international lens to that as well, because I think it's super interesting, this idea of being your messy, authentic self, coming from specifically the UK where traditionally you're encouraged to almost write in a very formal and academic manner when it comes to applications. It's important for any international students who are out there who have the same kind of vibe to feel free if you're applying at U.S. colleges, to look inside yourself and to be extremely authentic and honest on those applications. Because it can be so hard sometimes when you come from that background to really, I don't know, be that vulnerable on a piece of paper, but it's one of those things that's not just worth it for the sake of the application, but also very introspective. And I personally very enjoyed that, very much enjoyed that aspect of the process.
Charlotte Albright:
I would imagine another things that makes it difficult to apply to a college in the United States from outside the United States is that you might be likely to rely on rankings. You might pick up the U.S. News & World Report because you're not in this country, you don't get all of the word-of-mouth that maybe people would from inside. And Lee has something to say about the word "best." We often see the word "best. "Best college this, best college that. Lee, you had something to say about that.
Lee Coffin:
Quote unquote, "best" is such a subjective concept. And it's really about, can you imagine four years in a community that stimulates you in whatever ways that's true for you as an individual and as you understand yourself today? And I think the other thing I would just say to seniors as the fall plays out, by June of your senior year, you're a different person. And you're in this enormous growth moment that don't lock yourself in before you're... I guess a different metaphor. Don't eat the cake before it's baked. Give yourself time to enjoy 12th grade.
Charlotte Albright:
So Luke, did you have to rethink what the word "best" meant to you?
Luke Grayson:
I guess in some ways. I mean, I personally have never really been... Maybe it's just me, but I'm distrustful of these ranking systems. I'm always sat there looking at it like, "What are you really basing it on?" It's very vague. Yeah. And I'm sat there and I'm like, "It's not about what is best based on this really niche specific thing, it's about what is best for me." Where am I going to feel like I can be myself and grow as a person? I think that part that Lee touches on in that quote is super important to me, is if you're relying so much on this ranking of best that you are sat there even in 12th grade in a dilemma of how do I get into the best college? I feel like later on it's going to be much harder if that's to manifest into a place where you feel at your best. Enjoying 12th grade and then seeing where you end up is I think the best way to find out naturally or organically where you should be.
Charlotte Albright:
Let's unpack that a little bit more. Ronnie McKnight is going to talk to us. You remember, he's from The Paideia School in Atlanta and he's really taking again, a look at the whole list.
Ronnie McKnight:
And so I would want to make sure as I go into the final stretch that I have a nice balance of schools that not only might be more aspirational, but also places that are really good matches for me. And also some places where I'm fairly confident that I'm going to be admitted. So I'd want to make sure that my list is nicely balanced going into January one.
Charlotte Albright:
Now he's talking about your chances, Luke, to make sure that you're not only looking at the colleges you want the most, but also frankly some of the colleges that you think might want you. Does that make sense?
Luke Grayson:
Yeah. I mean, statistics are the bane of every future applicant's life, I feel like, right? You sat there Googling like, oh, what test scores do I need for this school? What percentage do I need? And the truth is admissions is never that straight curtain. So yeah, I think it's a pretty simple sentiment to have some schools that you would like to get into and have some schools that you would also like to get into, but you're more sure of.
Charlotte Albright:
Makes sense. Lee?
Lee Coffin:
The story we're telling through these clips and Luke's insights is balance, in this example, counts. You want to give thought to the place and its feel and your connection to it. And connecting the question about best and a balanced list, you have to decide for yourself what criteria is best and then hopefully that criteria adds up to an institution or two or three that represent that set of attributes. As opposed to relying on media outlet to tell you, "Here's our opinion of best." But that more macro version may not have anything to do with the criteria that you hold dear as you think about where you'd like to study.
Charlotte Albright:
So as you're making your list, you're researching, and there are places to look for information about colleges that go beyond their websites. So Mary Patrick McMahon has some advice about that.
Mary Pat McMahon:
I would say can you find somebody that either you know from high school or that you found as a student leader. You can go on and see where student group leaders are. There's usually contact information. Say you want to be involved in a dance group, and you look and you see who the dance groups are. And I think most students who love their school will say, "I'd love to talk to your prospective students here. And then say, "Can I just give you a call?" Or texting. I know people are more interested in texting a lot of ways, so you can certainly do it that way too. And then you'll have some questions. Sometimes I think it's hard to know how to start on the question of a cold call with a college student if you're a high school senior, but they have all been where high school seniors are in general. And I think they're all sympathetic to the predicament of trying to figure this big decision out without being able to come to campus and walk around and smell the air and reach around a little bit.
Charlotte Albright:
So Luke, did you do some of that sleuthing? Did you reach out to students? And how did that go?
Luke Grayson:
I have a super cool quick anecdote about this actually. When I was applying, I was in conversation and I can't for the life of me remember what their name was, which makes me feel so bad. But I was in conversation through an admissions counselor with a student who was an engines major, which is what I thought I was going to be, engineering. And she was like, "Oh yeah, for sure we can do a call at this time." And I was like, "Awesome, awesome." And I was expecting to call her and she'd be in a study room studying or whatever, in between classes. She was on a road trip with her friends and she took an hour out of her life to talk to me. And I was like, "Are you sure it's a good time?" And she was like, "Absolutely. There is nothing I would rather be doing than helping a potential applicant to this school that might join my community, figure out if this is the place for them." And that just struck such a chord with me, not just about that person, but about the place I was applying to.
Lee Coffin:
And Charlotte, Luke pays it forward because that story he just shared probably helped convince him becoming a blogger in the Dartmouth admission office where he regularly posts about his life as an Englishman drinking tea in the woods of New Hampshire or as he would say, New Hampsh-eye-re. So is your blogging connected to that kindness you experienced when you were a high school student?
Luke Grayson:
Oh, for sure, and I think it extended. I mean, I grew organically from blogging to doing outreach projects and especially internationally. And I think if I hadn't had that experience applying, would my outlook be a lot different? For sure. I think it almost was a moment where I was like, "Wait, somebody did that for me. I want to do that again."
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Charlotte Albright:
Well, and there's another reason to research these schools and that is that they're going to ask you why you have picked them. A lot of times on an application, there's a question, not just why you, but why us? I think you're going to hear Ronnie McKnight talk a little bit about that.
Ronnie McKnight:
Here's my general advice for any student. So one, schools tend to be very reasonable about those expectations and they simply want to know that a student has done enough research to know that that institution is a good match for them. And so if you've been very thoughtful in your application, and if that school happened to ask like, "Hey, why are you applying?" Pretty commonly, they'll ask a question about why are you applying to us? Like the why, fill in the blank, name of the institution. One, it's pretty important to be thoughtful when you respond to that to make sure that you have done your research and you know why that institution is of interest to you and that you're able to articulate that to the school. And then if you've had the luxury of being able to go and visit that campus, then you've met any institution's expectation for the most part.
If they maybe visited your area and you went to a reception, even if you took the time to sit down one afternoon and listen to one of their information sessions online, that's a great way to show an institution that you're doing your homework. And if they care about that sort of thing, then they'll notice that sort of thing that you've done.
Charlotte Albright:
So what do you think about that, Luke? Why'd you pick that one?
Luke Grayson:
So I think it's super interesting because I think we can often, when you're applying, get caught up in what this means, why this institution? And it's great to write about, I want to study X subject and I want to do this. And not speaking for the admissions team themselves, but I'm pretty sure you can glean that from other parts of the application, is this is why I want to study. But I think that it's an opportunity for you to place yourself as a person on that campus, going back to this idea of place, and talk about very specific aspects of that institution that you've figured out through interacting with students there and researching that school. And you're like, "You know what? This is what I want do. If I spend a day of my life on this campus this is where I want to be. This is the interactions I want to have." And I think that's a pretty unique opportunity with that kind of application.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. It's "show us that you know us."
Luke Grayson:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, it's a simple sentence. It's like we ask you to be your messy, authentic self, and we are a messy, authentic institution. What is it about that octopus that invites you to join us?
Charlotte Albright:
We do talk a lot in every episode about the importance of getting to know yourself so that you can know where you want to go to school, but I don't want to leave the impression that you have to know yourself as if you're never going to change. So here's what Lee had to say about that one time.
Lee Coffin:
The sense that we want you to have this preordained sense of who are you at the age of 17 is overstated. I think as a high school senior, you have license to still be imagining where you're going, certainly exploring new topics and new ideas and new identities for yourself. So that's really essential to me and I would be saddened if applicants to college think they need to pop out of some magic box as high school seniors and be ready to say, "This is who I am, this is where I'm going. Let's go."
Charlotte Albright:
So Luke, are you the same guy you were when you applied?
Luke Grayson:
Oh, absolutely no, not at all. Completely different person. But I do think that's the beauty of it, right? Is you're applying for this place and the thing that really, I don't know, I think is beautiful when you look at applications and stuff is, who could this person be? Right? It's not really about who you are right now today, it's about who could you be?
Lee Coffin:
One of the things we value in an applicant is potential. Potential means future. So the idea that every high school senior at the age of 17, 18, is fully formed and ready to go is just not true.
Luke Grayson:
Oh, also this idea that I have more of an idea of who I am and who I'm going to be at this point in time is also not true. I remember applying and thinking, "Wow, these college students really have it all together." And I wake up today and I'm like, "Wow, I'm going to figure out what I have for coffee before anything else."
Charlotte Albright:
One of the ways we do measure potential of course is through testing, but I think students are mistaken if they think that's the only way. And so there are always a lot of questions about testing on every episode almost. But I think this is one of the comments, Luke, that you chose that puts it in proper perspective. It comes from Stuart Schmill at MIT.
Stuart Schmill:
Your test score is not a referendum on you as an individual or even a student or your potential. It's just a point in time in how you might do in your first year or in your college courses upcoming now. But it does not say anything about your potential, your life outcomes, certainly your worth as a human or a person. And I think too often students get wrapped up in, "Oh, I'm really smart. I have a high test score." Or, "I'm not that smart. I don't have a high test score." And so much of it is about preparation, your opportunities, and it is not determinative of what your life outcomes are going to be.
Charlotte Albright:
So Luke, I'm not going to ask you what your test scores were, but this interested you, this clip, why?
Luke Grayson:
Well, look, you wouldn't use an oil test to tell you how good a car is. That's, I think, the best summary I can get of that is, look, it's a part of it. You want to obviously try and look at testing. It is a part of an application, but also, I mean, it doesn't have to be, I guess, at this point, that's a relatively new thing since Covid. But it's a tiny, tiny cross section and I think who you are as a human being is the ultimate point that you want to get across.
Charlotte Albright:
As Lee says often, testing is just one piece of the application. The bigger piece, I think, is what we often call storytelling, because test scores can't ever tell us as much as a story can. This is from Emma Johnson. She's talking about the essay that she wrote for her application, and she's looking back on her state of mind at the time.
Emma Johnson:
I wrote my applications. I knew that in high school there was a handful of teachers who would just... Anytime I would go to do something or I'd say, "Oh, I'm a little stressed." They would say, "You've got the Emma Johnson pizazz, you can make this happen." And so I sat down and when I went to write my application, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to put all of the Emma Johnson pizazz into this. I can." And I know that when I was writing my first few applications, I've gone back and I've reread them and they're exactly what I at the time thought the admissions team wanted to hear, and it's not what they wanted to hear.
Lee Coffin:
I love that you just said that.
Emma Johnson:
It was exactly what I thought some imaginary higher-up in the college scheme wanted to know about a potential student coming in. And then for my last few applications that were really close to the regular decision deadline, I just sat down and I wrote stories that I love to tell. And I wrote my favorite childhood memories from the time I convinced my little brother to eat a packet of wasabi or just things like that that were just parts of who I am that maybe not everyone gets to see, but it's the Emma Johnson pizazz and it makes me me.
Charlotte Albright:
Emma Johnson pizazz. Lee, I'm sure that Emma Johnson is not the only one who has pizazz because you read a lot of essays. So I'm wondering if her state of mind, thinking she should make an Emma Johnson that everybody would like, versus her later state of mind, Luke, where she said, "I think I'm just going to write about me." Did you go through those two states of mind?
Luke Grayson:
Oh yeah. I mean, look, I didn't need to make a Luke Grayson... Right? Because at least I hope that's what I've spent the last 20 years doing, right? I've grown into who I am today. And to use the trademark term, a little bit of that Emma Johnson pizazz, you just got to bottle it up, bottle up the essence of who you are, and I think communicate that. But I will say the caveat is that I think it's easier to talk about who you want to present. I think the hardest thing to do is to actually look at yourself and go, "Actually, this is me." And find words to represent that.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, because you have to trust that saying, "This is me." It's hard for you to see the way someone else is going to appreciate that and you have to trust that that honest representation is meaningful, and it always is. But I think what gets in the way is this idea that these cartoon characters that are called college admission people have some expectation of what you all should write. And so then you manufacture this essay or a short response that is fine, but it lacks flavor because it's very proforma. It followed an outline that somebody else suggested, "Do it this way." As opposed to you bringing your own pizazz and saying, "No, I'm going to talk about wasabi and you're going to learn something about me from that."
Charlotte Albright:
I think another thing that makes essay writing stressful—we have learned by talking to other students that we don't have time to play today— is that they think that's the "make it or break it" story. Sometimes they have peer recommendations, in other words, other students writing about them. They certainly have teacher recommendations writing about them. The whole thing adds up to a story. So that should take a little of the stress out of the essay writing. But we do have a couple of other clips about just the stressfulness of this whole procedure. So Sherri Geller talks a little bit about that, and I think eventually she talks a little bit about handling parents.
Sherri Geller:
It actually really frustrates me between these countdown clocks and how we release decisions that there is such buildup, but the buildup is great for the kids who get in, although anxiety-provoking along the way. But for kids that don't, there have been all this buildup and they're waiting for the confetti you described and the electronic woo, and then all of a sudden the answer is no and they just crash. They have been so anxious and they have that let down. They're on the verge of tears whether they get in or don't get in and it really becomes that the decision it's... You mentioned that I'm a sports fan. Like that LeBron James, the decision that we have to watch it on TV. They become so much hung up in the decision that it takes on a life of its own in a way that I don't think is healthy.
Charlotte Albright:
So you picked that one, Luke. I wonder if you picked that one because you wanted to share that it's necessarily stressful, or do you have some ideas for helping people relieve that stress?
Luke Grayson:
I think it's so easy to build up that movie moment in your head of the higher the stakes are, the higher the payoff when it comes through. But the truth is, and I think this has a lot to do with list building, and I think this has a lot to do with place and also a lot to do with this idea of understanding yourself, I feel like you have to have options when you're doing this application. And the realistic side of applications is the less fluffy and less nice and bright part to look at. But you have to have a list. You have to, I think, not just idealize yourself at one of those places or two of those places, but you have to have already looked at them and went, "You know what? I could be at any of these places and be happy." And in that way, whatever happens at the end, you know that you are authentic going into it and that you're going to be happy where you end up.
And then you can still have that big "hurray" moment when letters come through and you find out where you got into. But the stakes when it comes to getting a letter that says, "We're really sorry, but at this time it wasn't the right fit." You aren't going to be completely crushed.
Charlotte Albright:
And of course, you're not the only one in the house feeling that stress, your parents are feeling it on your behalf. And on their own behalf, I would imagine. Sherri has something to say about that too.
Sherri Geller:
As I've also become more their age and also just having more experience working with them, I really place much more value despite the fact that I sometimes have these funny posts, but about how much every parent... Just a reminder over and over again, how much every parent just wants to do right by their kid and have their kid be successful.
Charlotte Albright:
So Luke, to me, that almost felt like you were picking that clip to thank your parents.
Luke Grayson:
Well, I mean, yes, to a degree. Although I will say, I think I took it from another angle, which is, I mean, I'm an international first generation student. There's a lot of people who have the opposite issue of their parents know a lot about the process and almost have a lot of ideas about where their child should apply and how they should do that. I had the opposite issue of, I was not only introducing myself to this process, but also introducing my parents who really didn't have much of an experience with it. And also the initial reaction when I was like, "Oh, I want to study in the U.S." was, "Oh my God, no." Shock. "You can't do that." But then after coaching them through it and letting them in and being honest with them and open with them and communicating, it was a very meaningful experience of like, "Look, man, this is why I want to do this, and this is why this is beneficial."
And I think that one of the things that Sherri's getting on about there is this idea of parents really want to be involved in this process, but the student has to communicate with them on that, and it has to be a partnership. It can't be just one or the other doing everything.
Lee Coffin:
I think that's exactly right. And friends of mine asked me to come over and have a huddle with their high school senior a couple months ago. He was stuck in the search and so I'm happy to give him some thoughts. And at the end of it, his mother said, "He told you things he has never ever told us." And I said, "Well, partly, I'm an independent third person, so I'm not the parent with expectations that he's trying to navigate and honor. But also I asked questions about how he feels, what he's thinking, how's he sorting through things? And it invited him to talk about things that are more nuanced than just saying, did you take your SAT? What did you get on your calc exam? You have to go to this school because the tour guide was great." The noise that gets in the way of all of this college searching sometimes overlooks the conversational moment where it doesn't have to be all bells and whistle.
It could just be an honest, how are you feeling? And giving someone permission to say, "This is hard." Or, "I'm excited, but I'm nervous because I'm excited." And owning that, it's a skill that you will keep using throughout your life. It made me think about applying for jobs and waiting to see, do I get an interview? And then I'd had the interview and do I get called back to the next round? And then I get it or I don't get it? And that's not unlike applying to college. You put your best self forward and sometimes the outcome is what you expected, and sometimes it's not. And sometimes when it's not, that opens a door that you just didn't know was there. And life moves forward in a new and interesting way because of that.
Charlotte Albright:
Of course, one of the reasons parents get stressed is they're thinking about money, maybe in ways that their children aren't. So when Dino Koff, our director of financial aid at Dartmouth comes on, he always reminds parents, don't just look at the so-called sticker price, look at what it's going to cost you. And that means looking at what the possible resources are for financial aid. So I'm going to play that.
Dino Koff:
What is the cost of the school minus my scholarship? So that allows me to look at the award and compare offers because I know here's my total cost, what are the hidden costs? Are there healthcare costs? Are there internship costs? If you have an unpaid internship, can you accept that or are there different pots of money to be able to apply for to get funding to have this experience?
Charlotte Albright:
So financial aid is a thicket, is it not, Luke?
Luke Grayson:
I mean, especially for me, low-income, first generation student, it's the reason that I'm here. And I remember that was the big stickler point when I said to my mother like, "Oh, I want to go to Dartmouth." She Googled it and I think her heart nearly beat out of her chest when she saw the sticker price, which doesn't surprise me. And I had to sit it down and be like, "Mom, no, no, no, no." I think the toughest thing was for her I'm saying, "Trust me, I'm sure it'll come out affordable." And she's like, "Well, you can't tell me that number now, can you?" Because you don't find out until after you've applied. And so I think for me, being really educated on and having good expectations and correct expectations about what schools are going to offer you is a huge part of this realism of the process of you might have a dream school that you want to go to, but that school might not offer needs-blind, being obviously aid where they don't consider your income as an admissions factor.
And so at that point, you've got to look, okay, are there outside scholarships that I can find? All of that stuff. But it's super important that you can't just Google a college and go cost of going to Dartmouth and then presume that that's what the expectation is.
Lee Coffin:
I think that's right. You have to be open-eyed about cost and affordability and the college's resources to meet that cost and make it affordable. And as Luke just said, all of us don't have the same resources and policies. So that adds a wrinkle to the way a list gets sorted. But I think the biggest regret people have is if you don't explore, you're not going to get the answer to the question Luke's mother asked. The offer of admission will come with some type of financial aid statement, either an offer that meets your need and off you go and can make a decision based on other factors, or the numbers don't work and you make an informed decision accordingly. But you don't have the nagging question, I wonder what would've happened if... And for the places around the world in the U.S. that have scholarship resources, we have those resources to be able to give them to students. And I've said on campus many times, financial aid is an investment in talent. It's an investment in opportunity. And as a student, you have to put yourself forward and then make an informed decision accordingly.
Charlotte Albright:
But even if you've done that, even if you've done all your homework, you've made the right list, you've gotten into college, you've gotten the financial aid you need, you're coming from the other side of the pond perhaps, or maybe another continent over, you still land on a campus that in some cases you might not have seen. So Luke, you chose an interesting clip from Yehalah Fernando, who I believe was on the same show you were. Let's hear that.
Yehalah Fernando:
When I got here, everything was so different. I feel like you don't really notice the tiny things. I saw everybody driving on the opposite side of the road and the steering wheel was on the wrong side. And I was like, "Oh my God, what is this place that I'm in?" But yeah, it was definitely a journey that took a lot of... It was very emotionally tiring and physically tiring. It was definitely worth it in the end.
Charlotte Albright:
What's that make you think about, Luke? Tea? Are you wishing you had a cup of tea right now?
Luke Grayson:
No. You know what? Actually Nova Cafe, a little sideline, does some of the best English breakfast tea I've had outside. In fact maybe not in England, but around the places I've been. But no, I miss the small things. I've been here for a year straight and I haven't seen my family for 11 months, which is a long time. That's a really long time. I miss my mother's cooking. I miss seeing the people I went to school with, traveling around the UK, even just going to a restaurant or a pub or something, something very English like that. But it's also the thing of I'm in the U.S. and there are things that I can't do back home that I've gotten to love here. And it's a really scary transition. And it can be emotional like Yehalah has said, but it invites you to almost become a new version of yourself and gives you an opportunity to expand and also just reinvent yourself, reinvent the wheel in some ways.
Lee Coffin:
Luke, for students who go really far away for college, whether it's internationally or even you come from the east coast to the west coast within the US, what impact does that have on your independence?
Luke Grayson:
I think it's huge. Some people, I think, go that far and then discover that independence. And I think some people go that far to get that independence. And I always went out a lot, all right? I love my parents, I love my family, but there was a level of I want to really go out and do something for myself and almost prove to myself that I can do that. And you actually touched on something there that I think a lot of people don't think about as internationals, that if you fly from California to here, that's a same length of time on a plane as me flying from the UK to here and almost as much of a cultural jump. And so you're never alone on a campus like this in that experience, even when it comes to students that might be from this country.
Lee Coffin:
Right.
Charlotte Albright:
Well, now I want to compare the state of mind we have just been given a window on, in November of 2023, with the applicant. I think you'll recognize this voice.
Luke Grayson:
I'm going to be honest, Lee. When I was leaving England, that wasn't the point of jitters for me. I felt like I'd put a lot in to do it and I was excited to leave to the degree where I felt like I'd outgrown the environment I was in. And when I got to Dartmouth, it didn't hit. I feel like the courage it took to leave is embodied more in a daily way for me in the sense that I'm not only traveling 3000 miles to come to the U.S., but I'm the first person in my family to attend college, I come from a low-income background. And so for me, the fear is more of one that is associated with doing it. It's more of one of, I've got to make this work, right?
It's similar to what was said earlier actually. This idea of if I'm coming to the U.S., I've got to do something big, right? For me, the making the move was the easy part. It was getting here and realizing, wow, I'm here. There are so many opportunities, but I also have to make sure, like you said, that I'm doing stuff that makes me happy while I'm here.
Charlotte Albright:
So if getting in was the easy part. Now what's the hard part?
Luke Grayson:
I mean, first of all, wow, that guy's so inspirational (laughs).
Lee Coffin:
Very, very wise.
Luke Grayson:
Right. He must be really, really, really wise. Yeah, no, the flying here was the easy part, the arriving here was the easy part, the moving in. And then it's everything that comes after that. It's like I have this awesome opportunity. I have the winning lottery ticket, so to speak, right? I'm coming here, what do I do with it? What do I spend that lottery ticket on? And how do I make it benefit me? Because going to a place and getting into a place can seem like the mean all and end all when you're at that point in your life. But then once you've got in, that's the first step. So for me, it was like, what do I want to do for work? What do I want to study? And I did change from engineering to economics. What kind of person do I want to be? What clubs do I want to join? And how can I see that impacting my life when I leave this place in four years?
Lee Coffin:
And Charlotte, Luke's answer reminded me of the conversation I had with Emi Nietfeld about her book "Acceptance," where she also saw college as the lottery ticket and put a lot of energy into pursuing that outcome as her safe place. And then came to realize, oh, it's more complicated than that. And I think the aspiration of college is always important. I think the lottery ticket as it dances around as opportunity that must be attained, puts too much pressure on the experience to be perfect. And this is the idea that colleges are human institutions and they organically move and shift and grow and make mistakes. And you're part of that too. And you have to be in a community where you feel comfortable.
Charlotte Albright:
So one of the episodes that I think got a lot of people talking was the one where we asked Jack Steinberg—who is a Dartmouth alum and went on to become a noteworthy national reporter in the higher education sphere— we asked him into the decision room, Lee, and he got to listen to how you made decisions, and you talked to him about that. Here's an excerpt.
Lee Coffin:|
So the deadline was January 3rd, and as in most admission cycles, we have an avalanche of submissions in the week right before that. So literally thousands of applications land with a electronic thud at the deadline, and they get sorted into geographic bins. So at Dartmouth, every admission officer manages a region where we travel and visit high schools and get to know the landscape of that place. So when we meet the applicants, we can assess them in context and have some sense of, where do you live? Where do you go to school? What are the norms in that place? Because one of the things, I think, that gets lost in the broad conversation about college admissions is a kid from a rural small public high school in Montana has different resources and different norms than somebody attending a large suburban public high school or maybe an independent school on the east coast or the west coast.
Charlotte Albright:
So there was your inside view, Luke. Does it match up with what you thought was happening?
Luke Grayson:
Yeah, because I feel like when I was applying, there was always this level of doubt of, even if Dartmouth has put a lot of work in understanding the context of UK education in general, I very much doubt that there was anybody else from my region applying or had recently applied, being that there's only one person that I know of at Dartmouth who's from my area. And so there's a huge regional disparity, especially since a lot of people who are applying to this school come from privately educated backgrounds, a huge difference. And so there was always that level when I was applying that concern of, what if I'm measured against, like these other people from this other school? And what I very much realized afterwards being on the other end of it, is no, in all of the materials that you submit, especially things from a guidance counselor and those kinds of things, Dartmouth is not measuring you up against this broader number of students. It's measuring you up against your background and where you've come from and the opportunities that you've had access to.
Lee Coffin:
Well, it's a huge takeaway, and it's true across our peer group. We read in context. And I think that truth gets lost in the way college admissions is understood by many families around the world. And I'll say again, when we read a file, we do what Luke just said, we meet you where you are. And so the way you tell your story, the grades, the courses, the opportunity, the lived experience is indelibly connected to where you were raised. And it's impossible to take that story and contrast it to the school down the street even because that's not where you were. And it's a one-by-one process. It's very individualized and it's labor intensive, and it's the best part of the job because you get to do a little anthropology as we read and to see what's the local truth that makes this applicant the person he is, in this example.
Charlotte Albright:
And as somebody who's edited all of these word for word, if somebody said, "What word pops up the most? What word do you hear the most in 50 episodes?" I would've said the word "fit." And I think Luke picked up on that. This is going to be the last excerpt, Luke, and it does have the word "fit."
Darryl Tiggle:
You have options that are yes-able propositions. Which one do you think is the best fit? Does it have the academic, social, other types of criteria that you're looking for and that you can afford it? I think the one that feels the best is the best one for you. And in so much as I tell students on the front end, think about finding fit in the same way that you search out jeans. Right? I also love cars. So I think at that point it's really test-driving the car that you can absolutely at that point, admissions wise, hopefully afford financially. Which one can you drive the best, right? Which one will get you to where you're going or where you want to go in the best way?
Charlotte Albright:
So that was the inimitable Darryl Tiggle. He comes on a lot, as director of college counseling at Friends School in Baltimore. He is the master of metaphor, Luke.
Lee Coffin:
Total master of metaphor.
Luke Grayson:
He got three in that one quote. So I don't doubt that.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Charlotte Albright:
What appeals to you about that? Because that's our final word.
Luke Grayson:
I love the one about jeans, first of all, because you got to pick a pair of jeans that has the right kind of fit, waistline, leg length. But at the same time, I'm not going to pick a pair of jeans entirely on that. But the car one, the car one is what gets me. I like cars myself. And it's like, yeah, I could walk around a car a lot and be a tire kicker where I'm like, "Oh, I really want to buy this Bugatti Veyron. But it's one of those things where it's like, what can I see myself, my authentic self? So to say. Me today with my aspirations, abilities, and future potential. What could I see myself getting in and driving every day and being happy with? And not just getting in the first time and being like, "Oh, this is so cool. This is my car." But in two years' time, am I still going to be satisfied?? Maybe not as really enthusiastic, but am I going to be sitting there going, "I'm really glad I made this decision"?
Lee Coffin:
Totally true. And we talk "fit" all the time because it is the hidden purpose. You want to bring a class together on a campus, they need to fit with each other to create a community and a class. They need to fit with the place and be happy where they live for four years. But fit, it's part of the admission process on the college side. And it's a hundred percent part of the student's decision about where can I go? You put those jeans on, you're like, "This is the pair."
So Luke, thanks so much for joining Charlotte and me on this 50th episode recap highlight, reel. Charlotte, thank you for being my sidekick on this podding journey. The original podcast was "The Search," which launched in the spring of 2020 when we were all stranded at home. And we did about 20 episodes of that one guiding that high school class of 2021, which I think is Luke's class, through what was a remote admission process for everybody.
And that ended and we said, "Let's do an ongoing news theme show that brings people from college counseling and college admission and students and journalists and CBOs, and anybody who has something to say." And I think we've found an audience. And to those of you who've listened to all or part of our first 50-something episodes, thank you for downloading us and listening. I rarely say this, but please go to Apple and Spotify and give us a rating if you like us. What I've learned is those ratings help others find us in a media landscape that has a lot of voices giving advice. So if you think this advice has been helpful, a rating from you would be really meaningful to the juniors that we'll meet in season five when that gets going in the spring of 2024. But Luke, it's always fun to have you on Admissions Beat, and you're a natural at the mic.
Luke Grayson:
Thank you.
Lee Coffin:
And Charlotte, we'll see you next week as Admissions Beat continues. For now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks so much for listening.