Season 2: Episode 7 Transcript
Finding Your Place
Lee Coffin:
From Dartmouth College, this is Lee Coffin, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid. Welcome to the Admissions Beat.
For many of us, choosing a college is a two-part equation. First, you have to apply and you have to be accepted. Then, when affordability is a non-negotiable factor, a financial aid award must also be received, reviewed, and digested. When you're in your search phase, the net price calculators project need. After you've been admitted, hopefully, a financial aid award confirms that need as your decision comes into focus. In admissions, we talk about fit. Program, people, place must align with your persona, your aspirations, and your hopes. In financial aid, we talk about financial fit. Does the award make sense for you and your family? Can you afford it? Just because you want something doesn't mean it's within your reach financially. And that's a really important, sometimes poignant part of this conversation.
So today, let's probe this whole question of financial aid, affordability, price. How you apply for aid, how your aid is assessed, and how can you as a parent and a student or counselor, interpret the elements of a financial aid award when they land in your inbox?
For today's episode, I am going to once again turn over the mic to my friend and colleague, Jacques Steinberg, former New York Times editor and award-winning author on all things college and college admission. Hi Jacques, it's nice to see you again.
Jacques Steinberg:
Nice to be here with you all.
Lee Coffin:
And joining Jacques and me for this conversation is my colleague Gordon, aka Dino Koff, the Director of Financial Aid at Dartmouth. And as I tell him all the time, the most charismatic director of financial aid I have ever encountered. So it's always fun to bring Dino into this conversation because I never know what's going to come out of his mouth. So Dino, hi. It's nice to welcome you back to the podcast.
Dino Koff:
Excited to be here.
Lee Coffin:
So Jacques, I cede the agenda to you and Dino and I are ready to answer any questions you have that will help families understand how to proceed through this really important topic.
Jacques Steinberg:
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be in a position to ask you all questions, and for members of our listening audience, whether you are a parent or a student yourself or a counselor, perhaps a high school senior or somebody younger, we have in Lee and Dino two resources who've taught me a tremendous amount about the affordability of a college education. So my initial question for you both is to imagine those high school seniors and their parents and imagine that first conversation about the affordability of college, paying for college. And it may well be the first conversation as a family they've ever had about money. What's your advice on getting that conversation going?
Lee Coffin:
My advice is to do it sooner than later. We're airing this in mid-fall. The deadlines are approaching and I think there's a perception that this is a conversation to have at the end of the process. And I would advise them from an admission perspective to plug this front and center into the conversation about, "Where will I apply?" And to start thinking about affordability as part of that plan. And the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, FAFSA, is now live as well. So this is really an important time to start this conversation, but what do you think Dino?
Dino Koff:
Yeah, I think the admissions process goes hand in hand with the financial aid process. So when you start researching schools, I actually think it's looking at what are the majors? Where is the location? Do they have everything that I'm looking for? And that also includes affordability. And I feel like that should happen at the beginning, because the worst thing is at the end when you get excited and you've applied and you're admitted and then you're like, "Oh." And we want no surprises. So I think it goes hand in hand as you start the process, you can do research on both the admission side and the affordability of financial aid side.
Jacques Steinberg:
So let's dive in a bit on that research process and let's assume no knowledge. So a lot of these terms are intimidating, so let's not assume that our listeners necessarily know what they are. So in terms of flavors of financial aid, let's define need-based aid and merit aid.
Dino Koff:
Merit-based aid, I always talk about, is a talent or ability. And some schools fund talent or ability. And the talent can be in the classroom. It could be looking at a GPA, a class rank, a standardized test score if submitted. Some schools are going to look at your leadership abilities and what you're involved in. A merit award could be an athletic, could be music, theater, baton twirling. Again, all within the talent and ability.
Not all schools have merit-based aid. And the opposite of merit-based aid is need-based aid. Specifically, when we talk about need-based aid, we're talking about different numbers than merit aid. So for example, we're looking at finances, family finances, and I'm sure we're going to get to different forms that we're going to fill out. But we're looking at maybe income and assets and how many people are in the family? So financials, that's what need-based aid is. How much money do you need to come to a school? And some schools only give out need-based aid like us at Dartmouth and our Ivy peers and others will give out both need-based and merit-based. And that's part of your research. What is the criteria based on to get financial aid?
Jacques Steinberg:
In a moment we'll turn to forms and how you actually apply, but I want to first turn to sort of a checklist of sorts and to have us in real-time in this episode assemble a checklist that folks can use to frame some of these questions. And I know Lee, that's something that you do for families when you present. So certainly one question on that checklist as you reach out, do your research is, does the institution, as Dino suggests, offer need-based aid or merit aid or both? But what are the other questions, Lee that should be on that checklist?
Lee Coffin:
Some of the questions that need to be part of the map of where to apply are, what type of admission process does the college support? Is it need-blind? Meaning all applications are reviewed without financial aid being part of that process. Is it need sensitive? Also called need-aware, meaning to a degree or perhaps to a large degree depending on the institution, your ability to pay could be or will be one of the elements of review. So need-blind versus need-aware, need-sensitive, that's a foundational part of the way each college's admission process gets going.
But then within the financial aid policies that differ from place to place, is your award guaranteed for four years? Will the institution meet 100% of the demonstrated need that the aid calculators are projecting? Some places will say, "Absolutely." They say—Dartmouth is in this category—you need $40,000. We will give you a financial aid award of $40,000." A merit award might be you need 40 and we'll give you 50, but not meeting need might mean you need 40 and we'll give you 20. And that's called a gap. And you have to figure out, "Ooh, how do we finance the difference between what we need and what we were offered?" So percentage of need met is really important.
What are the elements of a financial aid award at the college in question? Is it scholarship? And to what degree? Is it 100% scholarship? Is it 50% scholarship? Is it a really little bit of scholarship? And what's the ratio between scholarship and student loan? How much do I need to work when I'm in school either through a college-based work-study opportunity or during the summer? How much will my parents need to contribute to the total cost? How much do I need to contribute as a student? So all of those questions are going to be different for each place. And so a checklist that looks at each of those categories and the answer from each institution will help someone say, "I've got my arms around this as it relates to this particular option."
Jacques Steinberg:
Dino, what would you add to Lee's checklist?
Dino Koff:
It's actually, I have a huge smile on my face, because when Lee was going through I was like, "Wow, he's hitting a home run." And I do want to highlight though on the checklist, part of that homework is the need-aware versus the need-blind. The statement, and I just want to highlight what Lee said, meeting 100% of demonstrated need is not happening at most schools across the country. And that's why it's an important statement to be looking for schools that meet 100% of demonstrated need, are giving you all the aid that you need to attend that school. And that's why I'm highlighting it. We're not seeing that across the country. And this is sort of like the Cadillac plan and it's worth taking a look and searching for.
Lee Coffin:
And that's a really important point to underscore just as we move forward, that the norm is an inability to meet full need. So I'm not pointing a finger at institutions that don't meet full need, they don't have the resources to do that. But as a family, it's an important thing to recognize as a list takes shape. To what degree will this or will this not be a factor?
Jacques Steinberg:
Yeah, and we've said a few times in this conversation that students and families and counselors should feel comfortable reaching out to financial aid offices, to admissions offices. One piece of advice from me as a former journalist is if you don't understand a term, if somebody is speaking in jargon, ask them what they mean. Ask them to define it. Don't be afraid to say, "I don't know what that is." And as we talk about that outreach, also, please know listeners, that there are human beings on the other side of that phone line and you might imagine them like Lee and Dino. And so just know that there is quite a bit of empathy and understanding, appreciation of where you are and a desire to help. Do you find, Dino, sometimes that folks are intimidated? That you can actually call the director of financial aid at an institution like Dartmouth? I'm not sure people would feel that that's possible.
Dino Koff:
Jacques, that's really good because people are intimidated by money discussions. And when you throw taxes involved in it, and we have a complicated tax system as it is, and that intimidates people. And then you see price tags that are very expensive and large. And I think people do need to know that we are receiving phone calls, we are doing Zooms. And it's not just Dartmouth, it's everywhere. Because we want you to understand, we want you to feel comfortable that you're making a decision. This is a four-year decision. And so we want you to feel comfortable knowing that, "Hey, my kid got in, we can do this." And whether it's Dartmouth or another school, it is reaching out. And what the pandemic has taught us is it's not just, "I have to show up at the school." Not just a phone call, but there are Zooms, we can share screens, we can go over items. The customer service has totally changed.
Lee Coffin:
It underscores the idea that both in admissions and in financial aid, we are all counselors. And I don't think the public recognizes that part of our role, but it's a really fundamental part of our role. And I think especially on financial aid, it's not just, "I'm counseling you while you're a high school senior." This person stays in your life for your entire undergraduate experience as your award or your need changes or your circumstances needs someone to sit down with you and say, "Hey, let me explain this to you." So this piece of it, this storytelling, this advising, really, really important.
Jacques Steinberg:
So we still are going to get to forms in a moment, but-
Lee Coffin:
Forms are so sexy.
Dino Koff:
Well, I was about to say, not as exciting as this, Jacques.
Jacques Steinberg:
Yes, let's talk a little bit about borrowing. For those families where borrowing is just a reality for closing that gap, Lee, that you referenced, where it's the only way that that's going to be possible do. How do families, students, and parents together, including in conversation with counselors, start to introduce the concept of borrowing and also their threshold for borrowing and understanding importantly the terms of that borrowing?
Dino Koff:
So really good question, and this is such a hot topic when we talk about loans, because for some families the college planning has been, "I have been saving for retirement and when my son or daughter goes to college, I am going to borrow for that." And that has been the mindset from the beginning. Others have saved some and maybe not enough and they realize, "I'm going to have to fill the gap by borrowing." And some people are saying, "I'm just not getting enough aid. And if we want our child to go here, we are going to need to take loans out." And every school is different how they handle it. And so I know we're going to get to the forms, but when you fill out the forms down the line, that does give you options on the federal side for federal student loans, for U.S. citizens and green card holders.
But there's private loans from private banks, there's institutional loans that some schools may offer. So there may be different options. And it's working with the school to say, "What are the best terms? What is the interest rate? How long do I have to repay it?" And then talking about if it's a federal loan, "Do I have a chance for public service loan forgiveness?" What are the repayment terms out that you don't have a crystal ball today, but what happens 10 years if you work in public service? What makes loans so tricky is, it's not one size fits all and they can all be a little different.
And not to make it more complicated, but that's where this counseling piece that Lee was talking about is so important. And the government has different call centers to help, but colleges do too, because that's our job to make sure you understand, "I'm taking a $3,000 loan. I understand it's going to be $100 a month. I understand that it's going to be at a 5% interest rate." So that you can see I need the 3,000, here's what the payback looks like. So you know ahead of time, "Is this worth the investment taking out this money now? Down the road, what will this lead me to?"
Jacques Steinberg:
So Dino, let's go a bit deeper on federal loans and some of the terms of those. Let's talk about interest rates and when you need to start paying back those loans and how long you might expect to do that.
Dino Koff:
So federal loans are the most common loan that the students are taking out. And interest rates are set by the government in May for the next year. So if you're going to be a first-year starting next fall, you'll know that your interest rates for federal loans will be set in May, effective for July 1. And they're fixed for life. And every year there may be a new interest rate that is fixed for life. Okay, so interest rates are set by the federal government. Terms are 10 years. If you need to extend it, you get to work with the federal government to extend that period of time. One really good thing about federal loans are, that when you go, if you decide, "I need more education, I want to get a graduate degree." Those loans have a deferment, which means you don't have to make payments while you're in graduate school.
Another great thing about federal loans is you have a six-month grace period. So if you start school year one in September and you graduate in May, year four, you're looking at starting to go into repayment in November. You have time to settle in, in hopefully a job, maybe you're moving and you have new startup costs. You don't have federal loans that you have to repay the minute you graduate. You do have a six-month grace period.
Lee Coffin:
And importantly when you have a federal loan, you're not paying it while you're in school. So you borrow for the fall of your first year, you borrow for your whole first year, there's no payment. It's not like a car loan where you borrow the money, you drive out of the showroom with your new Volkswagen and then a car payment lands in your mailbox. These student loans from the feds have deferred payments. So yes, you can go into deferral if you go to law school, but between your first year of college and your senior year, there are no payments expected while you are currently enrolled.
So as we speak to audiences of high school seniors and juniors and their families in particular, some of them may have heard about proposals from the Biden Administration related to student loan forgiveness. Dino, just very quickly, is that relevant to the conversation we're having right now?
Dino Koff:
I think students who need a loan will take a loan knowing that they can repay it and will repay it. And if there are future proposals that are out there by the government to help them with forgiveness or cancellation, they'll be able to stay on top of the current events of their time. But right now these are new loans coming out and the expectation is that they would be repaid.
Lee Coffin:
As I watched that news story go through this past summer, I kept thinking, "This is a little misleading." Because what the executive order did was it canceled previous debt. It does not wipe out loans from current financial aid awards. So that's a big difference. So what you see in the news is addressing the accumulated loans of people who've already graduated. It did not remove loans from the financial aid awards of students who are currently in college or who are about to go to college. And to me, there's a structural issue there that maybe the Department of Ed comes back to and says, "Hey, maybe we should rethink this." But that loan policy from the Biden Administration is not applicable in the real-time of college admission circa 2022/3.
Jacques Steinberg:
So let's turn now to the application process. Lee, you mentioned the FAFSA, which stands for the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. Let's imagine Dino's somebody who has never heard of this form. What is it? Where do you find it? How long does it take? What does it ask? And then Lee, we'll turn to the question of how it's used.
Dino Koff:
So Jacques, this form is available every October 1 for the next year it opens up. And it's on the studentaid.gov website. And so students will go and create a user ID and password and parents will also. Literally, they will go fill out this form, which continues to be simplified and it's made shorter and shorter. And students will, and families, can request that their IRS data, so their data from their taxes get transferred automatically to make life easier for the student. And so they log on, they can transfer their data, they answer a few more questions about assets and a couple different questions, and then they're submitting electronically. And by doing that, they're able to list a certain amount of colleges and the colleges get the data after it's submitted.
So if a student is applying to Dartmouth and four other schools, they would list the four other schools in Dartmouth, press submit, and we would receive it in a couple of days after the government has processed it. This form has become much easier to fill out over time and there are a ton of resources available. Many high schools do financial aid nights where they're doing FAFSAs or helping families. And of course schools will help, colleges will help fill this out.
Lee Coffin:
And if you are someone who needs federal financial aid, so a loan or work study, it's required. You have to submit this form every year that you're enrolled.
Jacques Steinberg:
And Lee, should that be one of the questions on the checklist I think we touched on, but worth saying again in terms of how this form is used and how it's not used and how that may depend on the institution, specifically as it relates to the admissions decision.
Lee Coffin:
So generally it's not part of the admission decision. So in a need-blind admission process, we don't even see it. So anything related to financial aid goes to the dean on that campus and that team assesses need and prepares an award and the admission officers are not part of that conversation. If it's a need-sensitive, need-aware institution, then the information that is provided by the Free Application for Federal Student Aid could be injected into the admission decision. For example, FAFSA may say, "This is a student who needs a $65,000 financial aid award." And then within that need-sensitive admission process, there's a question that must be answered, "Does this student's academic and personal profile merit admission at that kind of funding level or not?" And so a dean in a need-aware environment has to manage a budget and a resource.
I, in previous roles, had to do that. And my former president used to say, "Here's your checkbook. Optimize the outcome with the available resource." And so you're managing to a budget as well as an enrollment. And that's not something I would say to families you need to worry about. It's just a reality of the way a class can be shaped in that kind of an environment. Is it something that needs to preoccupy you? No. Should you be alert to the idea that that could be an element? Yes. I don't think it's a limiting factor for you as you explore, because many places follow that kind of admission process, but it's a piece of this decision that is in play.
Jacques Steinberg:
So we've talked about the FAFSA. For many institutions, there's also another form called the CSS Profile. And again, Dino, imagine a listener who's never heard of that. Where and how is it used? And talk about how families access it and what they'll be asked.
Dino Koff:
Great question, Jacques. So we spoke about the FASFA, which is a free application from the federal government, and 99.9% of the schools will be requiring that form. The CSS Profile is a form that is used by schools giving out need-based aid, mostly a little bit more selective schools. And so this form goes in a little bit more depth, it's going to take you a little more time to fill out than the FASFA and families fill this out. And there is, it's a little longer, as I said, and you will be needing your tax returns from the year being used to fill this form out. And so literally you'll have your tax return in front of you and it will say line 32, and you'll have to type this in. And so line 44 and you type that in. And it's going to go a little bit further in depth because schools that are giving out need-based aid, and again this is the schools meeting 100% demonstrated need, may be asking for more information.
And so if for example, a family is divorced, it's going to be asking for the custodial parent, parent A, and it will also be asking for the parent B, the non-custodial parent. Parent A can't see parent B's answer. Parent B can't see parent A's answer. So there is some confidentiality, which is great. This form costs $19 to fill out through the college board and there's a waiver for it. For students under 100,000, they don't have to pay for families making under 100,000. They don't have to pay for this form. This form is used, again, for schools that are going a little bit more in depth than the federal form, but it does take a little bit more time. And when we get families calling, asking questions for help on filling out forms, this is the form that we walk families through to make sure they feel comfortable understanding all of the questions.
Jacques Steinberg:
Let's turn to the question of immigration status and citizenship and thinking of listeners who may not be US citizens, how does that factor into this process and what should they bear in mind?
Lee Coffin:
So there's a really important first question here when we talk about citizenship. Most institutions in the United States are not need-blind for non-US citizens and permanent residents. So there are seven exceptions to that rule. Happily, proudly, Dartmouth is one of them. Aside from those seven, citizenship status counts as a determining kind of routing mechanism. You either go into a need-blind process like everybody else at the seven where there's universal need-blindneed-blind admission or international citizens have need assessed as one factor among many in their outcome. Connected to that is citizenship question around students who might be refugees or asylum seekers or undocumented students. And again, those three categories, usually permanent residents, dual citizens, fall under the umbrella of the US citizens and need blind review and aid eligibility. Institution by institution, they'll have different answers for the other categories.
Dino Koff:
This goes back to the research question and checklist. What forms are required for international aid? So at many schools that are need-based are still requiring the CSS Profile, but the FASFA is not asked for non-US citizens or green card holders. But by putting this in your checklist, what schools are giving money to international students, as not all schools and universities across the country are able to afford to do that. Knowing that ahead of time, working with the colleges, understanding currencies and making sure the schools understand your financial situations is really important. We get a lot of updates over the admissions cycle from international families sometimes, whether it's currencies that are moving, political situations sometimes. And so constantly we're in touch with international applicants.
Jacques Steinberg:
So Lee, as families assemble their checklists and set about doing their research, are there particular questions they should ask regarding in-state public universities? Public universities in the states where they reside?
Lee Coffin:
So I think this is a really important question as high school seniors are framing the lists of where they will apply. And so when affordability is one of the non-negotiable parts of a successful outcome, including your in-state university as an option, makes a lot of sense. The net price calculators are giving a projected financial aid and family contribution for the private schools on the list. More often than not, that's going to be a pretty close connection to what the aid award looks like. But when you get to March and April and the aid awards are there in front of you, having a state university as part of that menu, makes a lot of sense because it may be that they're comparably affordable. It may be that one is more or less so when you factor in in-state tuition or need-based financial aid or maybe a merit scholarship.
So I think for a "news you could use" piece of advice in the fall of a senior year, I think an in-state option for families that are really worried about their ability to pay what we cost, is an emphatic yes. Do it. Put one in the list, be excited about it as an option, explore it fully and know that later in your decision making, this may come into play in a really direct way.
Jacques Steinberg:
So as we talk about tools for doing our research, let's talk about the net price calculator. Families may have heard of it. They may or may not have used one. Dino, for purposes of this discussion, let's assume no knowledge of a net price calculator. What is it? Where do I find it? What am I plugging into it?
Dino Koff:
Before we talk about net price calculator, let's break it down to net price. Net price is what a family is going to pay. So if you have a school that is 80,000 and you have a $60,000 scholarship, the net price to your family is $20,000. You may pay for that with a work-study job, with savings, with loans, but the free money is 60,000 and so your net price is 20,000. So now add a calculator to that and we have net price calculator. There should be no surprises for families because you can go to these calculators. So every school that accepts federal money has to have a net price calculator. So you can go to the school's website, fill out the net price calculator, you probably need your taxes in front of you. And you're going to fill out this net price calculator, fill it in and submit it. And out comes your estimated financial aid award.
So if you're doing it correctly, you will know that, "Okay, if I get into Dartmouth, here's the cost of the school for me." And what I always say is, take a printout or save as a PDF, the copy of the calculator. And if this is a school you're really interested in, send it to the school's financial aid office saying, "Can we go over this together?" To make sure that A, you filled it out right, because as we said, this is a new language that you're learning financial aid and you make sure you filled it out correctly. And, "Okay, this is a good estimate for me and for my family." And so every school has one. So there should be no surprises as you apply through the process.
Jacques Steinberg:
As we come back to our checklist, one last addition for me, where Lee, do things like housing and food and even transportation fit on the checklist and how would you advise families ask questions about those things and affordability and financial aid?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, great question and I'm going to give families another way of thinking about price. So just like in the admission process, people like to think about grades and testing as the two data points that count the most. I think in this price conversation, people focus on tuition and room and board. And those again are fundamental parts of cost. But the real comprehensive fee, is a number people should be looking for as they explore. So a comprehensive fee for one academic year would include tuition, room and board, if it's a residential place. Things like book allowances and transportation. So you're from Massachusetts and you're going to school in Ohio, what's the cost of going back and forth between those two places a couple of times a year or more? Health insurance, activities fees. This comprehensive fee includes smaller line items and an annual budget that adds up to the total cost of one academic year.
And so when we say we meet 100% of the demonstrated need, it's against that comprehensive fee. That's where places that have more resources and more expansive financial aid policies cover more of what the comprehensive fee costs. And when you go the other way, places with less resources tend to pass on more of the cost to a family. So this is one of those really pragmatic moments of financial truth, like what's in it and what's covered? Dino, would you add anything to that?
Dino Koff:
The one comment I would make is, I want to rename the "comprehensive fee" as the "cost of attendance or cost of education," because that term, again, a financial aid term, that's not used a lot. You will see hopefully on every school's website because people say, "Oh, tuition is so expensive." And as Lee just rightfully said, it's not just tuition. We have to look at everything, the entire cost of you attending a school, every educational expense that you will have. And that's really important to look at the entire cost. So that comprehensive fee to make sure that it's not just a 60,000 or a 40,000 tuition. When you add in all the other components, it will maybe cost 65,000 or 80,000. Every school will have a different cost of attendance, but we are publicly listing it on our website.
Lee Coffin:
And Jacques, there's also a question of equity and inclusion lurking in this question you're asking. So to what degree does the financial aid award from an institution allow a student to be full and equal participants in the experience? So an example of what I just said, you might hear the college admission officer say, "50% of our junior class studies abroad for all or part of their junior year." Great. If I'm a financial aid student, can I do that? Does my financial aid award travel with me? Does this wonderful package I have cover the cost of a semester in Italy or not? And then that's an example of how inclusive is the financial aid award. And different places will have different policies that allow the meaningful need to include a bit more than some others. Is your healthcare covered as part of a financial aid award?
I mentioned books and travel, but what are these other little nuggets that require some money and to what degree does the financial aid award cover that? Dino and I have a conversation all the time about the geographic complexity of our student bodies. So people arrive in Hanover from all around the world and some of them have been raised in places that have much warmer climates than Hanover, New Hampshire during several months of year. Is there a clothing allowance? Can you buy a coat and boots to be able to live comfortably in a colder climate? These are all different pieces of it that add up to the way a college offers aid to the students we are enrolling.
Jacques Steinberg:
So let's talk about the student contribution. The student responsibility, including the potential responsibility to work and what that looks like in the context of financial aid and affordability.
Dino Koff:
When we talk about the student contribution for every school, it could be a little bit different. Some schools will have what is called summer earnings where after your high school senior year, you have the summer before you go to college and a school may say, "We would like you to bring $1,000 or $2,000 with you." So you work over the summer, you save that money and you bring it with you to college. And that helps you pay for your 2:00 a.m. pizza or that helps you pay for books, personal items, things like that. Along with in the student contribution summer earnings, could be a job during the school year, or work study or campus employment. At Dartmouth, I can tell you it's six to eight hours a week. And working in jobs that can be academic, working with faculty doing research, working in a lab. Non-academic, working at the library at 10 o'clock at night, possibly pulling out your own textbook if it's quiet. If you have expertise in another language, I know students love working with the foreign language programs.
Lee Coffin:
Dino, I used to work in the dining hall.
Dino Koff:
And the dining hall, absolutely.
Lee Coffin:
I had the Sunday night shift and I would show up and scoop food onto the plates of my classmates for four hours. And in my work-study environment, that felt like a workable slug of time on a Sunday evening. Didn't really disrupt the rest of my week, but it gave me the pocket money that it was intended to do. And I kind of liked it. I liked going in and standing behind the food line and seeing and talking to people as they went through.
Dino Koff:
These jobs are still there on campus. And I think it's important as you're looking at the financing for a whole year, is saying, "Okay, do I have enough to have the experience at the school I want to go to? Because I am going to this school because I really want to be in the jewelry studio or the woodworking. Or I want to be able to be in the theater department and be in a play or musical or play in a band." And you want to make sure that you're looking saying, "Okay, I can do six to eight hours a week. I can't do 40 hours a week. I can't go off campus and do that because I can't do the experiences that I want to get involved in on campus. That's why I'm going to this school." And so it's to have the inside-the-classroom and outside-of-the-classroom experiences. So this is something just to look at when we think about student experience, it's also that student expectation financially and you don't want to over-commit financially to saying, "I can earn this."
Lee Coffin:
I think this is all part of the idea of financial fit. I listen to Dino just tell that example of someone working 20-plus hours a week in a part-time job. Lots of people do it, I think. But it begs the question to me about affordability and have you put yourself in a situation that's just too much of a stretch between what you can afford and what the college is offering and how are you bridging that gap? So those are the kind of real-world moments where you stop and say, "What's the trade-off here?" I'd also say, as we were talking about student jobs, many of us right now have a deep commitment to expanding access to students from low-income backgrounds. And we included in the work experience is a campus job, but often a summer job as well, where you will earn some resources that contribute to the following academic year.
And in this low-income context, we will often waive that requirement for students from backgrounds where that's just not realistic or you are working, but you're contributing those resources to your household. So all of these different pieces are part of the conversation between an individual and the college and the way financial aid is met. So I add that just to reassure students who come from more lower income backgrounds that the resource, this comprehensive fee, we're talking about lots of dollars and I know for parents it can sound overwhelming. Like, "The cost of attendance for one year is more than I make in one year." And we know that. And these financial aid awards and the contributions from parents and students are part of the way that it all comes together. And I would say, again with my counseling hat on, don't let price tag be a reason you back away from an option before the option becomes a possibility. Follow it through. See if you get in, see how the aid award lands, then make a decision about whether it's affordable and doable. Don't eliminate something now, it's too soon.
Jacques Steinberg:
So for some of our listeners will be listening to this episode, having just pushed the button on an early decision application. This is a binding commitment in which they have said, "If admitted to your institution, I will come." Their parents have attested to this, their counselors have attested to this. Lee, what about that family that makes this commitment, student gets admitted and then the financial aid offer, the financial aid package, doesn't fit?
Lee Coffin:
So in a binding early decision round, financial aid is the reason you can break that commitment. You can get to mid-December and a financial aid award that for whatever reason isn't lining up, is grounds to ask the college to release you from the binding commitment you made. And just to define it, I mean, we had one person last year who fell into this category and we met need, it's just they had expectations for more need. They thought, "Well maybe then that price calculator was underestimating." It wasn't. So we can't make you do it.
But this idea that you are bound and there's no way of redressing that, that's not correct. Everywhere I've worked that has a binding round also has a permission slip to say, "If we can't get to some agreement on what it costs and how you can pay, then you are not bound to enroll." So I hope that's reassuring to families that may have pushed the button and they're chewing on their fingernails right now saying, "But what if?" Well if we get to the what if moment, and you've had a conversation with Dino and his peers and it's still not workable, we part company.
Jacques Steinberg:
I'm conscious of the fact that we've thrown a tremendous amount of information to our listeners on a subject that's anxiety-producing, sensitive, bewildering at a moment in life that is the same. So I'd like to end, not on that note, but hopefully on a note of optimism and specifically in response to two points. First of all, how confident should our listeners feel that this is doable in terms of understanding the universe of financial aid and affordability and that they will be able to find a place?
Dino Koff:
Jacques, when you talked about a positive, my first thought was, "I'm going to become a cheerleader here." And families can do it. And that's what I always say, this is doable. And for some families it may be you're going to be on the phone or on a Zoom or in person in an office for an hour understanding different forms or like, "Okay, I'm putting these numbers in, what does it mean? And this is what it says." And we're going to walk you through it. Or another school's going to walk you through it. It is doable. And outreach is important. Schools want to enroll their students who are admitted. That is our job. Admissions opens the door. Our job is to keep it open and have people walk in. And to do that, we need families comfortable. So reach out to schools. We can help.
Jacques Steinberg:
So Lee, for a family that might hear Dino say, "This is doable," be skeptical. The last word is yours. To what extent is this doable and why should a family be optimistic that they will find a four year college or university that they as a family can afford?
Lee Coffin:
four-yearI always come back to the story of Lee as a high school senior wandering forward and remember having conversations with my dad and he wasn't sharing the full degree of worry he had as his oldest child, kind of looked at a private liberal arts college and said, "That's where I see myself." And he did not hold me back. And for that I've always been really enormously grateful, that he gave me permission to explore. And I think I asked him like, "How'd you do it?" He goes, "You know, you're a smart kid and I trusted that the colleges that you were considering were going to walk the talk." They were saying, we meet need and we have this resource to help make it happen. And did he get every penny he wanted in financial aid for me and for my younger siblings? Not if you'd listen to him complain about it, but I think about the actual net price to use Dino's framing.
I paid a ridiculously low amount of money to go to a private liberal arts college, relatively. But also, I mean, the thing I wanted to end with Jacques is I look at financial aid as an investment in talent, as an investment in people. It's an investment in the future from the institution, but it's also for each of us who are financial aid recipients, it's an investment in ourselves. The money I borrowed in student loans, the jobs I had when I worked my way through college. And when I say work my way through college, I'm talking about summer and the dining hall, not like a 20-hour-week role. But it was a mortgage I was taking on my future.
You borrow money to buy a car, you borrow money to buy a house. This is another example of you're financing something really critical to where you're going. And that ownership to me is a really important part of this financial aid conversation. And my closing advice to families is, be clear about what can you afford? Don't hold back on that uncomfortable conversation with your kids about it like, "This is the resource we're going to need to get to make this work or not." And I think expectation setting at the beginning creates less awkward conversations later. But remember, particularly in the more selective part of higher ed, there are resources that we all have, that help families make it happen. And don't close an option before you've fully explored it. And that's a mistake I think in planning, like wander forward, do your homework and then make informed decisions after offers of admission and financial aid awards are made. Don't preclude something prematurely.
Jacques Steinberg:
So Lee Coffin and Dino Koff, I want to thank you for your patience with my questions, for breaking this down, making it understandable. Listeners, I encourage you to have versions of this conversation with people in roles like Lee and Dino, asking questions like this and being persistent in terms of getting those answers.
Lee Coffin:
People forget when they meet me that my title is Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid. So if I remove admissions, I am the Dean of Financial Aid. And I like that construct for my role because it points to the importance of investing in talent. It points to the institutional commitment of scholarships and policies that make this doable and creates campuses where lively, diverse groups of peers get to meet and interact. So maybe I'm up on my soapbox. It's something really, really personally meaningful to me as well as professionally purposeful. So I just talked about financial aid as an investment in people. So let's meet some people. Next week, three undergrads will join us to talk about their search and to give some advice to high school seniors as they look back where they were as high school seniors and what they might have done differently or what they'd do again if they were to apply in the fall of 2022.
If you liked this episode of Admissions Beat, please leave us a rating or a comment wherever you download your podcasts. Your feedback helps other listeners discover the conversation and it helps us make a better show for you. And if you have a question you'd like us to answer in our season finale, please share it with us at admissionsbeat@dartmouth.edu. That's admissionsbeat@dartmouth.edu and I'll pose it to our panelists on that final episode. Admission Beat is a production from Dartmouth College, but it's not about admission to Dartmouth College. It is produced by Charlotte Albright with editorial guidance from Jacques Steinberg and Marketing Strategy and Promotion from Kevin Ramos-Glew and Sara Morin. For now, I'm Lee Coffin. Thanks for listening.