Season 2: Episode 11 Transcript
Final Tips for Seniors, Part 2: Making Sense of Early Decisions
Lee Coffin:
From Dartmouth College, this is Lee Coffin, dean of admissions and financial aid. Welcome to the season finale of the Admission Beat, Part Two.
So when we recorded our advice episode, who knew that there were so many topics to cover that one would emerge as a topic all by itself? So part two of our advice is really focused on students who have applied early, early decision, early action, or might be thinking about early decision round two. So we continue our conversation with Ronnie McKnight and Sherri Geller with a particular focus on the early round of this year's admission process.
Sherri Geller is a former admission officer at Northeastern and Brandeis, as well as being the past president of the New England Association of College Admission Counselors. And Ronnie McKnight is a former admission officer at Emory and at Presbyterian College in South Carolina. I start with that because You've both been on my side of the desk. You've read files. You've helped shape a community, and now you've had long tenures in secondary schools. Where are you now?
Sherri Geller:
Hi, Lee. I'm at Gann Academy, which is a co-ed Jewish high school in Waltham, Massachusetts. I also used to work at Dana Hall School, which is an international all-girls boarding school in Massachusetts.
Ronnie McKnight:
I'm Ronnie McKnight, and I'm the associate director of college counseling at The Paideia School, which is in Atlanta, Georgia.
Lee Coffin:
And you've also worked at another independent school, right?
Ronnie McKnight:
I've been at Paideia for about 10 years. And prior to that, I was at another independent school by the name of Holy Innocents', which is also in Atlanta.
Lee Coffin:
All right. Let's focus in on early decision for a minute, and some advice. So I often hear from students who choose not to apply early, and they feel like they missed the party. There's a little FOMO going on where they had a very valid reason why it wasn't the moment to apply on November 1st, but then it feels like everybody around them did it. And there's this, "Uh-oh, what did I not do?" So can you reassure seniors in that space or in a school where lots of people applied early and they did not, that they have not missed the boat?
Sherri Geller:
The most important thing that you've said separate from the missing the boat, or not missing the boat part, is that they had a really good reason for not applying on November 1st. And to go back to reminding themselves why they didn't apply on November 1st and why now they're more ready to apply, whether it's regular decision, whether it's through an ED2 plan. There are some schools whose early action deadlines aren't until after Thanksgiving. There's a number of colleges where there's still a chance to do, it sort of feels like late early, by applying somewhere December 1st. And while it is hard to feel like everybody got their applications in, even if they got their applications in, it doesn't mean they're all going to get good news. And sometimes, in a few weeks it'll feel better to have not applied at all than to not have good news coming back because an application was rushed, or a student got an application in by November 1st that really wasn't ready.
Ronnie McKnight:
If there's a student listening that has that sort of gut feeling, like, "Gosh, I missed the boat," my school may not be completely typical in America, but we have a lot of students that will apply early action somewhere. In fact, almost all of our students will apply early action, almost a 100% somewhere, but only about 30% of our students will apply early decision. That's a big commitment to say that, "I've done my homework, and I know this school is my first choice. And if they're willing to take me, I'm willing to come." And a lot of students just aren't at that point. If they've done a really great job of looking at schools, they just didn't find the one place that spoke to them as the early decision option. So don't feel as though you have to do that. There are plenty of kids that have a very successful admission process that don't apply early decision, and they just go into the regular decision with a great balanced list and still have lots of success.
I'm at a school with some really spectacular kids that go to spectacular places, and some of them do apply early decision, but plenty of them don't and they do fine. So if you're a listener and you're a sophomore or a junior or if you have younger siblings, it's not too late because as Sherri mentioned, there are still some schools that have some early options that the deadlines haven't passed. But if you're a junior about to go to this process next year, the other easy way to kind of mitigate, "Gosh, I didn't find that early decision school," is that there are tons and tons and tons of schools that have early action where you still can get some news, and hopefully some good news relatively early, but it's nonbinding, and so then you can take that information in with you as you go into regular decision. So that's a great way to mitigate the nerves. It's always nice to get that first letter of acceptance as you are nervously waiting for those other schools to notify you in March or April.
Lee Coffin:
Let me follow up on early action just for a second. So the decisions, the early action will release decisions early to mid-December, and the student has the option to enroll at any point from then through May 1st, which is the National Candidates Reply Date.
Ronnie McKnight:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
What's your advice to an early action acceptance? How do they know when it's time to enroll and end it, or when to keep going?
Sherri Geller:
I think some students have already predetermined that. There are schools that have early action that don't have early decision, and the student knows they're going to treat an EA admit like it's an early decision admit. "If I get in there, I'm going." And that means they've already done their research, whether it involves visiting, talking to people, whatever the different things are that are going to help them figure it out.
I also think it's, where does the school fall on an overall list? Even if the student isn't ready to pull the trigger and apply, does it mean that they say, "Well, here are some schools that I was going to apply to regular decision, but I'd rather go to this one I already got into early action"? And it's a way to cut down a list a little bit and have a smaller group to focus on, knowing that you already have that acceptance.
Ronnie McKnight:
And what Sherri just said is so, so, so, so, so important. If you're that student and you've been admitted somewhere and you're really excited about that institution, if that was your first choice, then it is okay to end your process and to go ahead and deposit, and you're done. Treat it just like a early decision if everything has lined up and you've been admitted.
If you're really excited about that school but you want to keep looking, it is your right to keep looking. But it's also your obligation to only apply to an institution that you would pick over that place that you've already been admitted. Because if you keep applying just to apply, then you're just screwing over all of your classmates that may be dying to go to those other institutions. And if you take one of those spots knowing that you're not going to enroll at that institution, then you really have been kind of mean to another student out there in the world who was dying to go to that institution, that didn't get in or got waitlisted and has to wait even longer because you took their spot. So it is your obligation to only continue to apply to institutions that you might legitimately pick over that institution or those institutions that you may have already been admitted to early action.
Lee Coffin:
Right. I think that's such a powerful and important piece of advice. It's really a reminder to have some ethics in the way you move through the admission round and to be considerate to your peers. Because while you're not competitors in the strict sense, you are vying for a scarce resource in some colleges. You do want to be thoughtful about that, so I'm really glad you said it exactly as you said it.
So for the EDs, I want to just go through a couple of scenarios for our friends who've got a pending application already filed. We're going to get to, again, mid-December and the decisions start coming out. So there are the admits-
Sherri Geller:
Whoo, whoo.
Lee Coffin:
... the happy outcome to a binding early decision. It gets posted. You check it. Any thoughts on someone checking it while they're at school, or should they be home or in their car? Should they be recording themselves as they check and then posting it on Twitter?
Sherri Geller:
I think this is also something to talk about in advance as a family. Do you want to be home with your parents? Do you want to be with your best friends? Do you want to be hiding in a corner of the school in some quiet space? Do you want to be in math class? Which does sometimes happen. Colleges-
Lee Coffin:
Ronnie is shaking his head no.
Ronnie McKnight:
Don't be in math class.
Sherri Geller:
No. It's really hard sometimes, because colleges might send an email at one o'clock saying, "Your decision will be ready in an hour," and you're going to be in math class. All of a sudden, you have to figure out what you're going to do. I wish that would happen less frequently, but it does happen.
I think pre-thinking about where to be is important, and then I think not being with friends is often a good idea. Your friends will be there to support you, whatever the outcome. But when you're sitting with a peer who is also waiting for news, the anxiety that it's causing for both of you, I think, can really be overwhelming. I think if that's the option, checking it alone is a good idea. But there too, it depends on the relationship you have with that student.
If you have an advisor at school or a teacher, or you would like some adult to open it with you, you should find them. I think any adults in the building would be happy to do that. I think it's really, really hard to wait. I want my advice to be wait till you get home at night and open it by yourself or with your parents. But I know that when that email is sitting there, even in the middle of math class it's too tempting not to open.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ronnie McKnight:
I had a student once that waited three days to get her decision, because it was in the middle of exams. She knew that if she got admitted, she would not be able to concentrate, and if she got denied to her school, that she would just be so sad. So she waited until the end of her exams before she checked her decision. She got in to a very selective place, but she waited three days to find out, which is a startling amount of self-control.
Lee Coffin:
That is really remarkable.
Ronnie McKnight:
Remarkable. I'm going to add to what Sherri said and take another twist. Imagine you've gotten great news and you have been admitted somewhere. That is your information, right? That is your life and your decision. And of course, you're going to share it with your family, with your parents. You should also share your decisions with your counselor. So come tell me or Sherri.
I would be cautious or considerate when sharing good news. And there's no pressure to share bad news, right? You should still share it with your counselor, but there's no pressure to tell the world if you didn't get in somewhere. But if you do get in, I would still be a little cautious just out of consideration for all of your classmates who are going through the same process. So many of your classmates are going through the same process, some of them will get good news and some of them will get bad news.
I would keep your news to a relatively small group at least initially. Because in those first few days, because so many schools release around early December, and those first few days, those are very emotional. That's an emotional time for a lot of kids. And if you can keep Mom from posting that picture of you in your Dartmouth t-shirt on Instagram for just a few days, and maybe even wait until you mail that deposit check a month after you've been admitted. That is a much happier time for your classmates to share in your celebration than on the day that you got in and they got denied somewhere. That takes a lot of self-control as well, and it takes Mom and Dad being a little self-controlled to not share that good news with all of their friends on social media. But I think that's a really considerate thing that you can do knowing that there are also lots of kids that didn't get good news in those first few days. It's worth considering.
Sherri Geller:
I had a student come in once very, very upset because she wanted to come to school the next day and tell a number of people in person her good news. And meanwhile, later that night, one of her parents had posted to social media, "I'm so excited that my daughter got into a particular school." And the daughter really felt like that her mother just totally took her news and spread her news, but they had never talked about it. It became a moment of less joy, because suddenly there was this family bickering going on whereas if students had talked about who might share with who and when, who gets a personal call, who does read it on social media? I think those are important things to think about, too.
The student has talked a lot about their school, especially for ED. "Here's where I applied. Here's where I want to go." Everyone is going to be asking, "So what happened?" So thinking about if the student doesn't get in, who are those people that need to know as a courtesy because you've already had discussions with them about that particular school?
Lee Coffin:
So a couple quick more questions about ED. So you get in and you applied for aid, and it's iffy. What do you do then?
Ronnie McKnight:
Two things. One, if there's a family listening to this that is a sophomore or junior. At many, many schools, if cost is a huge factor, then hopefully you've already explored a little bit prior to applying for early decision. Because at many schools, one, every school in America has a net price calculator where you can put in some basic information about your family's income and assets, and they'll give you at least an estimate about what your cost might be. And two, at every institution in America that has early decision, there's a financial aid office that will be more than happy to talk with you and go through some information about what a package might be like if cost is a real big factor. So hopefully, that award that you just got from the institution of your dreams actually is kind of in the ballpark of what you were expecting, and that it was a conversation that you and your family already had prior to applying, and that this award is comfortable, and you're more than happy to pay your deposit and to make that confirmation.
If it's significantly different than what you were expecting, then that needs to be a very quick phone conversation that you have with the institution. And I would first reach out to the financial aid office to see. "Hey, we did the net price calculator. We were not expecting this," or, "We spoke with some somebody." So that's a conversation you want to have very quickly with the institution. If an institution has admitted you and if they have not made it affordable for you, then you can walk away. If you can't afford to go to that institution, you can't afford to go to that institution. But just know that when you do that, you end the process, right? You are walking away from that institution. So you definitely want to have a conversation with the school before you do that.
Lee Coffin:
So what's interesting about this question about a binding commitment and early decision, financial aid is the mechanism to break the binding commitment if the package upon appeal cannot line up with what a family reasonably expects to pay. So for students who are in that early moment and thinking, "Oh, I hope this works," it almost always does, because the colleges do try and work very carefully to make sure the estimates were correct, but also that the award meets your need. And if at the end of that it can't happen, we release somebody from the binding agreement. And as Ronnie just said, it is the end of the story, but that's important.
How about a defer? So you get the news in December that you have been deferred to regular decision. How do I interpret that outcome?
Sherri Geller:
I like to take the optimistic approach that that outcome can mean you have a second chance in the pool. Some students will take it as a pseudo rejection, but it's not because you do have a second chance in the pool, even though it's not good news right up front. It means that the school wants to see some more information, whether about you the applicant or about their whole applicant pool and where you might fit into it.
So it's important to know that senior grades continue to count. After a student gets deferred, they'll often have grades coming out in January or maybe February if they're on trimesters, and those could help influence. Or hurt, I suppose. But those could influence a deferral decision.
If students have things that are new that come up in the spring, they might alert a college. So for example, the student submitted their application on October 25th. It's now early February and some things have changed. Maybe the student's done a leadership position at school. Maybe they've gotten involved in a senior project or an activity. And if they want to let the colleges know that, they can send a note to the admissions office to update their file.
It's a way of also continuing to show some interest. Because if the student was early decision and they get deferred, they no longer have to attend that institution. So sometimes it's nice to let a school know that, "Hey, I am still interested, and here's a few reasons why. And here's a few things that I've done since." I would not recommend the letters go on and on, and there's no reason to send multiple letters or to try to start a whole conversation with the college. But a quick update around early to mid-February can help influence.
And then the students should also, of course look, at their overall list and see where that college and level of selectivity fit in, and to go back to Ronnie's point earlier about making sure to have some balance. I think there's a temptation with defers to go crazy. "Ooh, I didn't get in there, so all of a sudden I need to add lots and lots of schools to my list." Chances are that well-balanced list is still well balanced. A lot of times when students apply to a school early decision, they're applying to a school that's more of a reach for them. So knowing that the rest of the list ... You started with balance, you still have balance is a good thing to keep in mind.
Ronnie McKnight:
So many institutions will be pretty firm in early decision and either admit or deny. So if you are that student that was deferred, then I always take that as a hopeful sign that there was someone on that committee that thought that you might still be competitive in regular decision, and that they're giving you that chance to be in the pool and remain in the pool to see what happens. So it's always nice to be optimistic.
Sherri Geller:
Right. Some students have said to me when I talk about this update letter, "Oh, but nothing's changed." And that may be the case also, and there might not be a lot to say. It might be that the college isn't looking for too much that's different. They're looking to see who else is in the applicant pool and how they're going to think about overall who they're going to admit.
Ronnie McKnight:
Yeah. I think in that case, Sherri, it's nice to tell the institution that you're still interested, right?
Sherri Geller:
Absolutely.
Ronnie McKnight:
You applied early decision and they deferred you, and it's a nice reassurance to say, "Hey, I'm still here. I'm still very interested, and I'm still eager to hear from you."
Sherri Geller:
Right. And on that, I would wait. I mentioned about early February, even late January. Doing that the next day is not so helpful, because the college knows you're interested. You couldn't wait to open that news. So to say the next day, "Ooh, I still want to come," isn't as meaningful as when you've let a little bit of time go by and kind of let the dust settle, so to speak, and then you continued to have renewed interest. Or maybe it'll be by February that your interest has moved on to other ways and you decide not to send that letter, too. You don't have to remain committed to that early decision school if you get deferred.
Lee Coffin:
Nor are you required to be committed.
Sherri Geller:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
Deferral releases you from that binding agreement. I mean, we still hope the first choice continues, but the commitment you have made ... And it's a commitment signed, remember, by a parent and a college or guidance counselor, so three signatures.
How about the unhappy news? When a deny comes in at the end of early decision, what advice to a student who finds the outcome not what was hoped? How do you move forward with two weeks to the next round of deadlines?
Sherri Geller:
I think there's two things. One is the emotional piece, and one is the practical piece. From the emotional side, I think it is important to kind of take some time to mourn a little bit. I think that's okay. There's been a lot of build-up. Some students have focused on an a early decision school when they were quite young. Others find it more recently. there's a lot of hope built up, a lot of emotional energy built up. And I think taking some time to kind of grieve can be really helpful and really comforting. Talking with students, talking with your college counselor, talking with whoever are the people that bring you comfort. I've had students make other students that are sad, I've heard them make them cakes or bring them fun little cards or gifts. And I think students thinking about how they're going to support each other when their good friend gets bad news can also be really helpful.
On a practical note, I hope that students aren't going to suddenly, in that last two weeks, all of a sudden do all their applications. I hope that they've worked on them now so that it's a little easier to hit that send button. Because if you do wait for those last two weeks, all of a sudden not only are you in a panic, but the last thing you want to write for college is why you want to go to a different school when where you really wanted to go is to that first school. It's a lot easier to do the application work and have it ready to go so that all you have to do is maybe a final proofread and hit that submit button.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And to Ronnie's point about the clarity of a yes or a no, as a college admission officer, the no's when they come are intended not as an insult in mid-December, but as a way of giving a student a clear reaction that allows him or her to come back into the process and say, "Okay, that didn't work. How do I reboot my list as needed? Maybe there are too many aspirational options. What can I extrapolate from this outcome to these other outcomes?" It's not a decision we make with any malice.
I often think about like, "You've applied one place and this first answer is a disappointment." That's a poignant moment. And I would just offer as a reminder to students and parents not to misinterpret that single decision against the whole search as it's played out. Easier said than done, but I think the ED declines are ... And notice, I always say decline, not the other word. The ED declines are not the moment to panic and turn one app into 20 to cover yourself, because I hear that a lot where there's this flurry of activity in the mid part of December.
Sherri Geller:
Something that's so hard about this bad news is that students put a lot of very personal information into their applications, and then we ask them to not take the news personally. So it's really hard emotionally to wrestle with that, that the colleges are not making any kind of judgment on who the student is as a person. They're looking at the applicant in the context of a whole large pool, but yet the students often feel like, "Ooh, but I told them about my story, and they didn't like my story." And that can be really hard for them.
Lee Coffin:
Totally. I totally get that. As I said at a high school visit last week, there's no joy in saying no.
Ronnie McKnight:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
It is a byproduct of selectivity. It is not the purpose of the work we do. But I think that mid-December early decline is an unexpectedly challenging moment for a student, a family, and sometimes the school community, too. I just wanted to ask that, because I think it is a pragmatic piece of the way this plays out.
But then there's this other lingering round. There's this thing called early decision round two, ED2, which Ronnie mentioned. So what's that?
Ronnie McKnight:
At some institutions, there are two rounds of early decision. If you weren't ready to make a commitment to that school on the 1st of November, which is the normal date for ED1, often come January 1st for the schools that have early decision two, there's a second chance to go into a binding application where you're telling that school that if they admit you, that you're willing to attend, assuming that they make it affordable for you.
You don't find out quite as early, because time has passed. Probably the pretty common deadline, or the sequence is that the deadline will be the 1st of January, and then sometime in early February they'll let you know. And then at that point, if they've admitted you and you've gotten a sufficient financial aid award, that you make your commitment and pay your deposit. Your process then ends there.
It tends to be two populations. Students that just weren't quite ready to make that sort of commitment in November will sometimes be ready to make that commitment later on. There are also students that just happen to find two schools that they really, really loved. One school had early decision one that they gave it a shot, and maybe they didn't get in or they got deferred. And now, suddenly that school that was number two on their list is now shifted up to number one. And if that school happens to have early decision, then it gives them another chance to go through what is sometimes a slightly advantageous admission process, meaning that the admit rate might be a little bit higher in early decision than in regular decision. So if that school happens to now be your first choice, it's an option.
Just like with early decision one, at least at my school, there are students that will take advantage of ED2, but there are also lots and lots and lots of students that just aren't ready to make that commitment simply because they want to go through the regular decision process and look what their options happen to be and be able to choose between those options. So for some students, ED1 or 2, that's a great option. And for others, it's just not because they're not ready to make that commitment.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Sherri Geller:
Right. A challenging thing with ED2 also is that students have to do the whole regular decision process part anyway, other than the piece of the process when you get your news. Because if a student applies ED2 on January 1st and maybe hears from the school back on February 10th or so, which is common, if they get in, they're now going to that school. So any other applications that they also filed on January 1st, they would withdraw, assuming they've gone through the financial aid process and the other pieces, and never get to hear that news. So that's not a great thing about ED2, but the students still have heard on February 10th or 15th or so rather than at the end of March, and that can be really nice for the students that have that new first choice.
Lee Coffin:
Sherri and Ronnie, thank you for joining me not once, but twice on this two-part finale. To the listeners, it's been such fun to wander from the back-to-school moment to now early December with you as your senior years have played out. Your deadline is approaching. I have all best wishes for the new year that you're going to find the college of your dreams. And I promise, I will be back in 2023 with Season Three of the Admissions Beat. There's my dog jingling his collar in a little holiday greeting of his own. But Season Three will debut sometime in late January, and we'll have a whole new set of topics that will serve both seniors as you wander towards the enrollment deadlines of the spring, but also juniors as a college search gets rolling for the college class of '28. So for now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College wishing you happy holidays, and we will see you soon with Season Three of the Admission Beat. Thanks for listening.