Season 1: Episode 5 Transcript
Expanding Access
Lee Coffin:
Dateline: a campus near you. Read all about it. Press releases, articles, blogs, newsfeeds, rankings, books, tweets, post, podcasts. The head spins and swims in admissions updates. News, spin, lists, commentary, gossip. So much buzz, too much info, so many opinions. I'm here to help. When the beat is loud, I'll turn down the volume.
I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's Dean of admissions. Welcome to the Admissions Beat, the pod for news conversation and advice on all things, college admissions.
Well, everyone, welcome back to Admissions Beat. This week, we are going to have a conversation with Matt McGann, dean of admissions and financial aid at Amherst college, about some of the big news and admissions and financial aid policy that came out of that liberal arts college in mid-October. They have a long tradition of expanding access and leveling the playing field of college admission, and that mission was on full display last month. So I'm excited to have a conversation with Matt about their changes to financial aid and legacy admission practices. But first, let's go to the newsroom with Charlotte Albright. Hi Charlotte. What's up this week?
Charlotte Albright:
Well, actually what I'd like to do is briefly mention what was up about 50 years ago this week.
Lee Coffin:
Wow. 50 years ago. Okay, let's go back.
Charlotte Albright:
On November 21st, 1971, then-president of Dartmouth, John Kemeny, announced that the board of trustees had voted to allow women to apply for admission, with a target enrollment of a thousand women and 3000 men undergraduates. I mention that because that's a moment when a lot of our peers were also increasing access, in that sense, to women. And by the way, there are two other anniversaries that kind of have to do with access: the rededication of the Native American program and the Black Alumni of Dartmouth Association. So Lee, while diversity is not really new for many colleges, it is a work in progress. And a lot of that work has its roots in admissions. So, I guess I'll ask you, sort of spinning off that old news story, how much progress have you seen in 30 years?
Lee Coffin:
Oh my gosh. I mean, when I do presentations, particularly for reunions and alumni groups and I go backwards, I say, "So here's what the landscape looked like when you were applying." Or even when I was applying in the early 1980s. There have been so many gigantic jumps in terms of who is in the pipeline towards a college like this one, or just more broadly the internationalization of it, the beginning of clear and strong commitments to low-income access and first-generation college access and underrepresented access. And at the beginning of my career in 1990, some of those were front and center, but not all of them to the degree that my peer group now sees advocacy and sees social mobility as really core to what we do.
And it's interesting about the 50th anniversary of co-education at Dartmouth. We were the last of the Ivies to become co-ed. But the class that enrolled this fall had the largest number of women in it of any class in Dartmouth's 252-year history. So you see this progression towards something new… it's exciting as campuses reimagine their identities and their purpose and their community. So it's exciting.
Charlotte Albright:
So let me pivot to a story that NPR has been covering. Corey Turner at NPR broke the story, and he's covering it very closely. And I don't see it too many other places, because it's really complicated. But, the U.S. Department of Education now says that certain federal student loan borrowers who had been expecting their loans to be forgiven because they had entered certain professions following graduation— teaching, nursing, socially-oriented professions— they've been promised loan forgiveness, but because the program has been in disarray, they haven't been getting it. It looks like finally, the U.S. Department of Education is going to fix it. How important is that?
Lee Coffin:
Most important. It's a recognition of the value of some roles that may not have compensation that helps them pay off that debt. And so I think if one of the goals of college is to admit students from diverse backgrounds and prepare them for diverse careers, some of those careers are not going to be as lucrative as others. And I think this program as imagined reassures students that yes, you can take your degree and become an elementary school teacher without carrying this federal loan debt for 10 years as you're trying to get yourself established as a teacher or as a nurse or in fields like that, which are really important occupations for people to be pursuing.
So it's an encouragement that these fields matter and that loan debt should not be a reason to shift your purpose because you got to pay that off.
Charlotte Albright:
Yeah. And apparently, the program has just had a lot of problems which are now getting addressed. so that's important.
Lee Coffin:
That's important. And it's unfortunate that there's some bureaucratic issues that are gumming up the intent of this policy. But I can speak as somebody who had student loans and then decided to work in college admissions and at my entry-level role, I wasn't making a lot. And that loan debt was a distraction. I had moments when I thought, why am I doing what I'm doing? Because I'm struggling to pay the debt back. So, I think this kind of incentive is an important one that I support.
Charlotte Albright:
And the fix comes at a strategic moment because those professions, especially teaching and nursing, in this era of COVID are the very ones that are seeing really, really pressing shortages.
Lee Coffin:
That's right.
Charlotte Albright:
Yeah. Thanks Lee.
Lee Coffin:
You're welcome. When we come back, we'll meet Matt McGann from Amherst in this week's round table.
(Music)
So this week's round table welcomes my friend and colleague Matt McGann, the dean of admissions and financial aid at Amherst. Hi Matt, nice to see you.
Matt McGann:
Hi Lee. It's great to be with you.
Lee Coffin:
Matt is in his fourth year as dean at Amherst and came to Western Mass after a long tenure at MIT, his alma mater, where he was the director of admission for a long time and someone who I always admired as one of the pioneers of social media and kind of web presence in admissions. Your working at MIT was really cutting edge during the early two thousands when nobody was doing it and you were. So excited to have a conversation with you on the topic of expanding access, because one of the things I know you were very committed to personally and Amherst has been very committed to for many years is this idea of redefining the student body that we bring to our campuses today.
And you made a splash a couple weeks ago with a series of policy announcements at Amherst that the New York times covered. And in that story, you said, "Amherst wants to be a leader in policies and programs that support access in equity." Tell me a little bit more about that.
Matt McGann:
Yeah. I mean, one of the great things about our work in higher education and especially in admission and financial aid is getting to be right on the cutting edge of access and opportunity for so many wonderful students across the country and around the world. And that work at Amherst has been in many ways a part of our story since our founding 200 years ago. The founding ideal of Amherst was to be a place where indigent young men of piety and talents could come to study.
Lee Coffin:
That's a really specific group.
Matt McGann:
Yes. Yeah. And so it, from the very beginning, the idea was that we wanted to be able to serve not just those with a lot of means, but also those students who didn't have the means, but had the talent, had the interest to make themselves better. And ultimately to use those talents to make the world better in some way. Now as with many of our colleges, we've had ups and downs with our commitment to the mission and to that access mission. But certainly, over the last few decades, I've been really happy with the work that's happened here at Amherst College, being the first of the liberal arts colleges to have a no-loan program as they call it, which we can talk about later, if you like. That we are need-blind and meet full financial need for all students, regardless of their citizenship status, regardless of when or how they apply.
And also beyond admission and financial aid, the ways that we think about support services here, so that students don't just get into the college, but also are really well supported, have the counseling and mentoring and supports around them access to really great career and internship opportunities. And when I see colleges doing things like this, it makes me really happy because I think this is the right kind of work for our institutions, is to bring students here that represent the many talents that are out there and then give them the support to go and do great things. That's what our colleges are about I think.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, you're living the mission of social mobility and saying this door opens and somebody sees their life arc change as a result of the degree they earn and the experience they've had at Amherst. But you've been a leader for a long time on the low-income initiative too. I mean, not just no loans, but before lots of places were doing Pell access. Amherst was in that space very actively.
Matt McGann:
Yeah. And some of this is about having the right messages to break down some of those barriers that first-gen and low-income students out there perceive about our colleges. Our colleges definitely are places with a lot of resources but have a very reputation that is occasionally earned of not being as friendly as we could be to a variety of populations that have not been historically served well by our colleges. So no-loan is an example; there's conversation out there and concern about this student loan crisis, which is not so much of something that is centered on my campus or yours, but it is still very much a barrier for so many families. They see this price tag, which you and I know is not going to be what a lower-middle-income family in the United States is going to pay to come to our college.
But the messaging around that is very challenging and is not really very friendly. So to have initiatives like say, if you come here, we're not going to have student loans in your package, I think that helps with the access message. Or you mentioned our most recent financial aid expansion where we're able to say that most students who come from the bottom 80% of American household incomes would come here and pay no tuition typically. And further that those in the bottom half below the median household income in the United States, that, those students would come here and typically wouldn't pay any, not only any tuition but also no housing or meals or room and board if you prefer.
So this is really just a description of the kind of financial aid programs that we've actually had for many years at colleges like ours, but to be able to kind of cut through some of what people are hearing that college is too expensive, that there's going to be so much debt, that it's not going to be for my family. The more that we can do to get those messages out there, I think is really important work.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. That's right. And I think I've noticed, and just over the last decade that, the applicant pool is moving steadily south and west into parts of the U.S. where liberal arts are not top of mind for a lot of families is, and then you add the price tag to it and it seems like a non-starter to say, "Hey, come study a discipline you've never heard of, at a price point that seems well outside of our means." And we know that the liberal arts are dynamic and there's an enduring value, but it's on us as admission officers to keep telling that story that it's affordable. Over the last several years in Amherst, I mean, how has your campus culture and community evolved because of the commitment to expanded access and equity at the college? I mean, what is the faculty seeing? What's the peer dynamic on campus?
Matt McGann:
In some ways, it's easier to diversify a student body that turns over every four years than a faculty that turns over every 40 years. But we've seen some great progress, our president and provost, in a time that they've been partnered over the last decade or so half of the faculty that they've hired have been from historically excluded groups. And I can see those mentorship relationships being really powerful across all of our students. And I think that's a really important part of the story here. For us as a place that I think sometimes is looked at as kind of this New England elite and has history in that, for us to have a first-year class this year, that is a majority domestic students of color, that's very exciting for us.
About a quarter of our students are low-income Americans receiving Pell Grants. And we've certainly learned a lot as we've diversified the campus about how to better support a campus that isn't homogenous. In some ways it's easier to build a homogenous community where everyone's coming from the same kinds of backgrounds and perspectives than one where you bring in students that have a variety of perspectives. You can have that friction, but in that friction comes those moments of learning.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And is the class you just described, is that a record profile for Amherst?
Matt McGann:
In terms of racial and ethnic diversity, it is. Socioeconomic diversity, we've been up and down somewhere in the 20 something percent range for quite a number of years now. And also for a school that didn't go co-ed until well into the 1970s, we have a very large number of women identifying students to the degree that we haven't typically seen this year. So all of that, it's a changing community, but I think changing for the better in that it better reflects the mission. We're better achieving our access and opportunity mission that we have. And that's really important.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, I also think it better reflects the country and the world. I get questions about that kind of access and how the composition of student body is so dramatically different than it was 20 years ago. So it's 2021, like the student body we're putting together and the lives, they will lead in the careers they will have demand this kind of heterogeneity as part of their undergraduate experience, and that's how you prepare the future; it's how you map the future.
So mid-October, you made some headlines, part of it was financial aid that kind of, I don't want to say got lost in the story but, that part of the story. I noticed it, but the big headline was Amherst ended its legacy admission policy. And tell me about that, what informed that decision? And what was the rollout like?
Matt McGann:
So for about a hundred years, Amherst College has had an admission preference for academically well-qualified children of graduates of the college. This was something that we began to examine about two years ago. And including the president, the faculty, the board of trustees, students trying to better understand what does this policy mean for us? What are the pros? And what are the cons? And ultimately as a community, we decided that this preference, this tip that we would provide for academically well-qualified children of graduates of the college, maybe wasn't necessary. And maybe the benefits of such a policy were outweighed by the ways in which it hindered our goals for access and opportunity.
And coming back to the beginning of our conversation about messaging. We talked about loans and costs, I do think that the admission process at these so-called highly selective schools, I think out there, there is some idea that, you have to know somebody, or you have to have an in. And in our roles, you and I know that, that's not really the case. But I think that that idea is a part of the conversation about admission to our universities.
And also, as we think about the lived experiences of these legacy students on our campus, as we had conversations, we started hearing from some of them that actually, they had a bit of an imposter syndrome, some of them, which was really interesting and something I hadn't thought of. That there was some question in their mind about whether or not they belonged, did they get in because they had a preference or because they really earned their opportunity. Now on the back end, actually being a part of the admission process, I know how super talented these students are, how terrific they are, how much of an impact they make on the community. But for them to have that question, that's something that I think we can help with as well.
I also worry a little bit about the distortive effects on the college search process. One of our prominent alums told me recently that, in his circle that many of the college counseling conversations that they have at their children's schools, they hear that one of the first questions that might be asked is, so what's your legacy school? As if just the fact that you might have a preference and you might get some kind of admission advantage there means that maybe that should be on the list or go up the list a little bit higher. When really what we really hope for is for students to find that place that's the right fit for them. And if it happens to be one of their parents, Alma maters, that's wonderful.
And I think more often than in the usual case, it might be because they've heard about these wonderful places in their homes, but do they need an extra preference in the process. And ultimately, as we had this community discussion, we decided that, that was not something that we were going to continue.
Lee Coffin:
And how did your alumni respond to the policy news?
Matt McGann:
Yeah. Like any group you can't paint with too broad of a brush.
Lee Coffin:
Good answer, Matt.
Matt McGann:
So there have been all kinds of reactions. We've tried to track this, all of the kinds of feedback that we've heard. And actually the majority of it is positive and supportive. Especially from, from younger alums and in college engagement work, the younger alums are sometimes the harder alums to engage. And that's been a really nice outcome from this. A lot of prominent faculty and alums and all over social media with fireworks, virtual and otherwise. But there certainly are some alums who feel that maybe this means that we don't value the alumni community as much anymore. And I get that, I understand that. That's not the intention here, and I don't think that's the effect either.
But that's led to a lot of conversations about what does it mean to be a lifelong community? What do we want to provide to each other as it's not just a four-year community experience, but a lifelong experience? What should be a part of that community and what doesn't need to be a part of that. And those have been really fascinating conversations to have, as we dig into, as people think about their identities and how much being an alum of this place means, how does that identity influence the way that they feel about their relationship to the college today and the ways that it's changed and the ways that it will continue to evolve going forward?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, I mean, you're putting your finger on the emotional sub-current of this policy. In a lot of places, it's a practice more than a policy. It's not written down somewhere, but it's just over years and decades of doing it this way, it's become the norm. And I think it's easy to hear in the shift in practice, "You don't care about me anymore," and I don't hear you saying your children aren't welcome on this campus, it's just the pathway into the campus does not have a plus factor as you said. It's, you apply like everybody else and you holistically make your case and the decision falls where it falls. And that's not a rejection of your extent community and their value, I mean, but that's hard. I think that is the piece of this topic across all of our campuses where this is kind of an open question this fall.
And as we go forward, how do you reconcile this multi-generational community with the places it exists in this moment? And yeah. But going back to one of your first things you said, this has been part of Amherst's mission since it was founded. So you would think that alumni of this place would understand kind of this egalitarian socially mobile goal that's been part of the Amherst community for 200 years. Doesn't make it easier, but it's part of your story. So speaking of social media and the fireworks, I mean, we had an exchange a couple weeks ago and you were in the midst of a real live Admission Beat. I mean, I named the podcast, the Admission Beat, because it's the way the national media covers the work we do. And so you were right in the eye of the storm for a bit of time.
What was that like as Matt and as the Dean of Amherst? I mean, two different ways of kind of thinking about the storytelling you had to do as the evening news and radio and everyone else kind of showed up in your literal doorway?
Matt McGann:
Yeah, it's been really interesting. So our initiative was a paired initiative, pairing the elimination of the legacy preference with a financial aid enhancement. And we've not been alone in making some really important financial aid enhancements. You all up at Dartmouth have done some great stuff this year, a whole bunch of other places have announced really good and progressive policies to help students and to help access. And some of that hasn't gotten as much coverage as I would've hoped, especially because there's such a narrative about college cost and college affordability.
But as you alluded to, a lot of these stories have really grabbed on to the other half of this paired initiative, the legacy per reference. And this is something that a lot of people seem to be very interested in. And I think it's part of an evolving conversation about social mobility, about access and opportunity and about how do we live our missions and the ways in which sometimes we as institutions seem to be in conflict with ourselves and with our own missions. And where tradition and modern values might come into conflict.
So I think this makes it a very interesting story. So it's been fun talking with people and trying to help them to understand how college campuses are today, how admission offices and financial aid offices are today. I think people love hearing about college for those who have gone, for many of them it's been so transformative, many others aspire to be a part of our communities, and the admission and financial aid work I think is not always well understood. And so I really appreciate actually you doing this podcast, which is, I think part of a broader effort of helping people to understand the good and nuanced work that we do.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. No, I used to teach a graduate course in admission policy. And I used to say, every year when you're working in admission, there's idealism and there's pragmatism, and those two things bang against each other and sometimes you have to compromise one way or the other, but you don't surrender either one, I mean, they're part of the job. But I'm struck by the way admission news can ignite and in good ways and bad ways, but in your case, I think it was a good way. It was just all of a sudden this national light fell on your shoulders and there you were, as Amherst dean, the spokesperson for what was happening. Was it intimidating at all? Or were you like, I'm ready for this?
Matt McGann:
It was a little intimidating. Because it's me talking, but I, I represent the school and I want to do right by this place. This is a place that I believe in, and that I know that there's so many members of our extended Amherst College family that want to hear that Amherst is doing this in the right way. So I felt a lot of responsibility to the community. I think that was what was intimidating about it, not so much that the reporters were intimidating. Mostly, they were really curious and I appreciated that. But the weight of the college community, that was where I felt it. And that was what worried me most.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, and it's, I would even expand it and say, it's the weight of your peer group as well. Because as one of the firsts to take this step, you met this conversation before the rest of us have engaged it. So you're…the New York Times said, "Amherst is a pacesetter in a lot of ways." And I think you, as the dean in that environment are also a pacesetter because you're finding the language to propose, explain, defend as needed a change. And that's the, when I look at the 27 years I've been a dean and the way the rhythm, it just every couple of years, something shifts a little bit and you have to adapt and you have to reinterpret it and don't lose your compass, but the policies evolve and the practices change. And you're right in the thick of that.
You mentioned the changes in the financial aid policies, and I've noticed this as well. Like there's every couple of days it feels like another one of us is saying, "Here's a new financial aid initiative," and what do you make of that? I mean, you had a couple of big ones, as you mentioned, Dartmouth has had a few large ones as well, but like, what's the root of this?
Matt McGann:
Yeah. I think there are a few, I mean, so certainly the access and opportunity conversation that we've talked about. Nationally what are some of the big things that are talked about? Free college or eliminating student debt. So these are not just things that are limited to a few campuses, this is the national conversation. And so the policymakers in DC are grappling with these same kinds of issues. And I think for us to grapple with it on our campuses, I think it's the responsible thing to do as the national conversation turns. And the research that we all see says that, we can do a better job in having policies and having messages that will help us to enroll campuses that better reflect the demographics of the country, racially, ethnically socioeconomically, for sure.
And you and I, first gen-college students, we know that these financial aid policies are so critical to a student feeling like they can really take advantage of the resources, that we can have of campuses where people equitably can take advantage of resources. So you were talking about study abroad and I want these incredible opportunities, like study abroad to be available to everyone regardless of their family's finances and not just available or more available to those that have the means. And go on down the line about all the kinds of opportunities that are on our campuses. And ideally, they're all equitably available too to our student body.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And what... As we're having this conversation, I'm thinking we represent places with the resources to be able to do what we're doing and that's not universal. I had someone say to me, "Oh you work in rarefied air. And I said, "I do." I mean, I understand the privilege of representing a place like Dartmouth and your place, like Amherst, where being... And I think your president said this in the New York Times story, "Like we have the means to be able to walk this talk," Which is great.
But what is the takeaway for places that don't have the means? I mean, they'd love to do what we're doing and they can't. I mean, how do we... I guess is, we're leading, we have the means to make these policies and encourage others to do the same, to raise the resources, to rethink priorities. Is that part of it, do you think too, like help helping bring some leadership to a set of policies and practices that are hard to implement on a lot of campuses?
Matt McGann:
Yeah. I think that's right. I think showing that it can be done, I think can help set an example regardless of resources and can help nudge things forward. Or as we enroll a more socioeconomically diverse student body, as we get up to a quarter or more of the students that are here on receiving Pell grants, so low-income Americans. What are the ways in which the campus community changes? How do you need to change the ways you think about support? How do you change the ways that you think about pedagogy? So, we're learning some things along the way. And certainly, we've learned a lot from those places that have always been leaders in this space.
I remember my first trip to visit the folks at Beria College, which was an incredible experience or the good work that they're doing at the Cal States or CUNY— my first time on the City College campus in Upper Manhattan was a wonderful experience. And so we can learn from each other in the ways that we can better do this mission of access and opportunity. And I think for those of us that have the resources, maybe it's even more important for us to take out some tough positions and try to show that it can be done so that others can follow. So I hope at Amherst that we're doing that to some degree.
Lee Coffin:
So Matt it's interesting when, when I look at the tiny group of national selective places that have a no legacy practice. You worked at two of them now. MIT has had this for a long time and you were the director there. Now, you're at Amherst and maybe wherever Matt McGann goes there are legacy practices. And, but Cal Tech and Hopkins…so Hopkins and its president have been very vocal and the Chronicle of Higher Ed about what, what President Daniels calls "It's time to end hereditary advantage."
Matt McGann:
Yeah. And it was helpful. I think for the campus conversation to know that others have navigated this successfully. So, I guess MIT, and Cal Tech, Johns Hopkins, as you mentioned, Pomona College is another. And-
Lee Coffin:
I didn't realize that Pomona has no legacy as well.
Matt McGann:
Yeah. And I think different campuses have had these policies for different amounts of time and have talked about them in different kinds of ways. We chose to make a public announcement paired with a financial aid initiative, but others have done it quietly where... Like at Johns Hopkins, President Daniels has been pretty public about the ways that they phase that out over time and actually didn't tell anyone for quite a few years, which is another interesting approach. And I can understand that is another approach that people may wish to take, to kind of sunset it quietly rather than to kind of pull the band-aid off and have that ouchie there for a little bit.
So, yeah, and I have a guess that Amherst while we're the most recent to make this particular change, I would be surprised if we were the last. And my guess here is that, we'll look back at this time at some point and think, yeah, it was probably maybe even past time for changes like this to happen. But I understand that colleges are complex and these conversations take time. And also it's not the most important way that we can support access and opportunity. I think it is one way, and I think it's a good conversation to have, but think there's lots of other important things that colleges need to do to also support this.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, no, that's a good segue to my last question, which is, what's next? Amherst is a pacesetter. What's the crystal ball, as we continually expand access, like what comes next? You may not know the answer to that yet, but I think a lot about pipeline issues and the dramatic and urgent need to see students in under-resourced schools from rural-urban communities, in particular, have a chance to be considered. But what do you think the next initiative might be at Amherst?
Matt McGann:
Yeah, we just did this one here Lee. But yeah, I think there'll be a lot of things to talk about. So right now we're having conversations about transfer. And I think part of the American ideal of higher education is that you don't necessarily have to finish where you start or that two-year colleges, so-called community colleges can be a great option for many students to start. And students who choose community colleges or take pathways through the armed forces, we've been really happy to prioritize those students in our transfer process for quite a few years. But I wonder if what are ways that we can do even more there. I think that that could be an emerging conversation on many of our campuses too. So that's one guess, one thought on things, but there's a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, we're far from perfect, but we strive for the best. And I think we're going to keep aiming in that direction.
Lee Coffin:
That's a great note to end on Matt. Thank you for this round-table conversation. And if you will indulge me in, stay around for my next segment, which is inbox, we'll answer a couple of questions from listeners, if you have the minute.
Matt McGann:
Sounds great.
(Music)
Lee Coffin:
Okay. We'll be right back with Inbox, stay tuned. So this week's inbox, Matt McGann from Amherst will join me in the Q&A. And Charlotte, what have our listeners proposed this week?
Charlotte Albright:
Well, there are a lot of questions that are kind of circling around this access issue. And the broader question of, "once you give me access, am I going to feel welcome?" So I'm going to start with one of those. This is a question that says Campus Pride—and I hope you'll explain what campus Pride is—Campus Pride recently released a list of 180 colleges and universities as quote, the absolute worst, most unsafe campuses for LGBTQ use. So should I eliminate those colleges from my list? I mean, how much credence do we give listing like that?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So, and Charlotte, to your question, Campus Pride is an organization supporting LGBTQ students on college campuses and giving guidance. I think the bigger question is, what do any of these lists really mean? And how are they informed? But I think my answer to this would be as a resource it's worth taking note of what an organization dedicated to supporting students is saying like, Hey, these campuses are not the place where you might thrive, but I think you also have to look at all of this information through your personal prism and say, does this feel right to me as I'm picking up this info and looking at the campus and trying to see myself in that space? Matt, what's your sense of this one?
Matt McGann:
Yeah. I think that sometimes with the college fit conversation there's definitely focus on the brand names and the prestige, and who's got the best major in X or Y. But yeah, how can I find this place that is going to support me, that will have the support such that I can really thrive on this campus? And in this world, I am concerned about anti LGBTQ bias, I'm concerned about anti-Black racism, I'm concerned about Native erasure and the treatment of Native peoples. I'm concerned about rising antisemitism and anti-Asian hate. There's a lot that I think students need to think about of where they can have a space where they can achieve their goals as free as possible from hatred and bias.
Now, how you do that, I think is really challenging. But I think that folks should do their best to talk to students and other members of communities to try to understand the, how support happens, how community is built and the more that students and families can do this work, will help people succeed beyond just the classroom, but the whole college experience. And that's really important here.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And I think Charlotte, as I'm listening to Matt, I also would turn the list around and instead of focusing on which ones to avoid, I think there's probably a parallel list saying these campuses are exceptionally inclusive for this topic, whatever the topic is. And that gave us a long set of issues to be thinking about. But basically, these are resources to say, we're going to help you think about this question of fit, where you see yourself and what on the more proactive way of thinking about a list, which places have demonstrated a deep and true commitment to the question at hand. And I think that, so I would find that other list and explore those options as places where you're already getting a signal that we do what you are hoping to find.
Charlotte Albright:
Yeah. And to put it in context, even if there are 180 colleges about whom or which there is some ambivalence on the score, there are 4,000 out there. So there's 180 out of 4,000. So here's another question. Are independent school applicants increasingly favored compared to public school applicants in colleges?
Matt McGann:
Yeah. I don't see evidence that there's a favoring of independent school students in the admission process. And I know that families and students make a variety of choices for a variety of reasons. And I think we want to understand each student in their context and school is an important part of that context. And not everyone has the opportunity to attend an independent school. I mean, I went to the public high school in my town, that was what was there. But when students do have choices, just as we talk about college fit, if you have the opportunity to choose among multiple places, sometimes it can be really great to make that choice, whether it's an independent school or charter school or religious school, or your local town public school. And we try to hold that as context, but not as something that's by itself, a plus or a minus.
Lee Coffin:
I don't meet an applicant and say, oh, I'm going to favor this one because she's from an independent school or a public school. You read the student where she's in school, what's up, what are the opportunities in that school? And you go from there.
Charlotte Albright:
Here's a question about how admission officers treat the information they see. The question is, how do they verify the information that's given on the application? You just take it at face value?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I mean, I'm going to maybe give more old-fashioned answer to this one, which is, I trust what people submit. And there are moments that they're rare when I read a file or a colleague brings me a file and says, "Something doesn't add up here." But I don't open any application with a degree of skepticism about the veracity of what's in it. And maybe I'm being naive. I mean, Matt, am I naive in saying that? I mean…
Matt McGann:
No, I think that's the right way to approach this. Is that, students take this process seriously, they want to put their best foot forward. And yeah, I don't want to live in a world where we have to worry that everyone is lying to us. And that's certainly not the case as we review these files, and then ultimately we're able to welcome these students to our campuses and see them in our community. And that's the ultimate, I think test of all of this is that, when they come, they are mostly who they've represented themselves on the application.
The other thing is that, in places like ours, we don't have just a student part of the application, but we also hear from teachers and a counselor. And if something is so important to their story, that it's going to influence their admission decision, oftentimes it's going to come up in one of those other letters. This is also a function of interviews, many campuses have interviews with admission officers or student interns, or with alumni and alumni volunteers. So across all of these things, often you're able to kind of triangulate as much as possible who the student is and what they would bring to your campus.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Charlotte Albright:
And here's my final question.
Lee Coffin:
Okay.
Charlotte Albright:
With, COVID bringing a halt to so many sports and activities last year, actually the last two years now, how are you looking at these non-academic parts of the application that would normally paint a much bigger and richer picture?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. One by one, based on what's in the file, not what's missing. And I think on the extracurricular side of high school, particularly for the past 18 months, people couldn't gather. So a lot of activities that would have been a typical part of junior year, senior of high school, were suspended, virtual. But I think the way I've answered this to other students who've asked it is, like, what's the root of the activity? What was the talent or the interest or the passion that the club highlighted. It wasn't the club in and of itself that was important, it's you're in debate, so you're someone who plays with ideas. You are a drummer, you're a musician position, you're the senior class treasurer, you've been selected by your peers to lead them and entrusted with their finances.
Like those are the qualities that, that animate the file, not just the fact of I was the drummer and the jazz ensemble and fact that the jazz ensemble couldn't perform doesn't stop you from being a drummer.
Matt McGann:
Yeah. It's great to see how students, even in these challenging times still managed to live life to its fullest, even with the obstacles thrown in their way. Students, I think, are demonstrating a lot of resilience in the ways that they are using their time differently because we all have to, for the sake of each other and our public health. And it's been wonderful to hear about the ways that students are reconnecting with their family and better supporting their families or that they have even sometimes innovating to bring things virtual that were in person and finding the ways of connection and communities court, what we do.
And it's been really interesting to see if this new generation of students has found a way through. Showing their resilience. This is a remarkable generation, and it's, it's been cool to see that come through in their applications and ultimately in how they show up on our campuses.
Lee Coffin:
And that's the last word from Matt McGann for this episode of Admissions Beat. Matt, thanks for joining us. Charlotte, as always, thanks for your journalistic insights as we ponder the news from another week on the Admission Beat. For now, I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College, see you next week.