Season 1: Episode 14 Transcript
Junior Kickoff Part 2
Lee Coffin:
Dateline: a campus near you. Read all about it. Press releases, articles, blogs, news feeds, rankings, books, tweets, post, podcasts. The head spins and swims with admissions updates, news, spin, lists, commentary, gossip. So much buzz, too much info, too many opinions. I'm here to help. When the beat is loud, I'll turn down the volume. I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's dean of admissions. Welcome to the Admission Beat, the pod for news, conversation and advice on all things college admissions.
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Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Admission Beat for another round of conversation with my friends Matt Hyde, the assistant vice president and dean of admission and financial aid at Lafayette college and Kate Ramsdell, director of college counseling at Noble and Greenough School in Dedham, Massachusetts. Hello Matt and Kate.
Matt Hyde:
Hey Lee.
Kate Ramsdell:
Hi Lee.
Lee Coffin:
So we were such chatterboxes last week in newsroom that we ate up an entire pod just with our kibbitzing about the headlines. So our roundtable got punted into this episode called "Junior Kickoff," and I wanted to bring the three of us together for this as way of helping high school juniors and their parents get rolling in what is the fourth college admission cycle that has been touched by the pandemic. The high school class of '20 finished what ended up mostly been completed when COVID erupted. The class of '21 and the class of '22 had their entire college search defined by these limitations and the guidelines required. And now the class of '23 as they begin—maybe we're emerging, God-willing we're emerging— but we still have to think about COVID as an element of how to explore. Wanted to have a conversation with the two of you around the nuts and bolts. And Kate, you recently hosted a junior kickoff for the parents of your class of 23 and I was one of your panelists. So I'm hoping I can hand the mic over to you and have Matt and I be your two panelists to have a conversation around getting started and what are the things you think juniors and their parents should be knowing now as the next college admission cycle starts to move forward. So where would you want to start?
Kate Ramsdell:
Let's see. The three of us have been doing this for a long time. And so what I'm wondering is, what do you think really hasn't changed in the advice that you would give families in the last 10, 15 years? And then, what is the tale of this pandemic? It seems to me that it is still not over. And so what's changed and what continues to change?
Matt Hyde:
Not a lot has changed. We still have the responsibility of crafting new classes of students for our respective institutions. And there are always going to be a blend of priorities that we need to manage in doing so. That hasn't changed. What has changed a little bit is the opportunity we have to be more accessible to students in this pandemic space to prevail our vibe, to share our message, to get people excited about who we are and why they might want to think about having our college experience on our campuses. So using this overused word, we've had to pivot in many ways in how we engage and inspire young people. But I think it has allowed us to be more universal in our outreach to students, which I think is a win for everybody all the way around. So there is a silver lining this pandemic that I think has made us better, but there's still challenge in that's space.
Lee Coffin:
I'm nodding as I listen to Matt thinking about the pivot was purposeful. I don't think any of us knew that in the spring, summer of 2020 when we were scrambling to imagine how to do our work when we were broadly on lockdown, before there was a vaccine and we were hibernating really. And my podcasting began in that moment when I wasn't able to travel and people weren't able to visit. So you had these experiments that began. My podcast was an example of that, but I think broadly we all moved into a virtual recruitment platform that unexpectedly and powerfully expanded access. And we ended up being able to contact more people, have conversations in new ways. The digital natives who are these high school students these days responded really well and voila. We have a very different system than the ones that were imagined in the late 20th century that we just kept following because it worked and we didn't really have the moment to stop and say, why do we do it this way?
So the first part of your question Kate, what's the same, what's different? What's the same is it's still a conversation between a college and a student about what comes next. What is a student imagining as a course of study, as the place where she will thrive? Is it affordable? How far away can I get from mom and dad? All of those pieces of the way students have been thinking about college for forever remain. We remain holistic in the way we read files. We look at every student as the sum of many parts and in some ways might even be more accentuated because some of the elements are fuzzier than they were just a few years ago, but then the change part, it's virtual. And I think what's changed and what's probably most vexing for parents maybe a bit more than students is the process doesn't have the same predictable sequencing.
You don't go out in your station wagon or minivan and visit 10 places and then pick a couple and take some tests and do the extracurriculars in a certain chronological order and have a summer program and then apply and then come back and visit again. I mean, that's become in some places impossible to do. And so that's different. I don't know if that's changed so much, it's just the reality of all of our lives right now. And it breeds worry and I think that's the animating emotion right now is just worry. It's always part of college admission, but I think it's maybe more heightened.
Matt Hyde:
Well, and if I can take a second here, Kate, to hopefully lessen that worry and anxiety, because there's one thing that hasn't changed is that this whole experience of searching for and applying to college is still a rite of passage moment that in my mind should center around this self-celebration and this opportunity to be introspective for a young person to take a good, hard look in the mirror and say, who am I, what's my deal and why is it my deal as a student, as a scholar, as an artist, as an athlete, as an activist, as any these identities that they claim, what's up and why is it up? And that introspection I think it never really happened often enough, but again, perhaps another silver lining in this pandemic is the gift of time and to be reflective because the fact is each and every one of these young people that you have the honor of working with, they have a narrative, they have a story, they have a voice that's distinctly theirs.
Yes, it's been shaped by a pandemic now, but that's not a surprise to us. Our narratives have been shaped by that as well. But I like to think that through this whole experience, the idealist in me sees them gaining agency over that narrative, realizing they're shaping it each and every day with the choices that they make. So that hasn't changed. And I think every young person has the opportunity to own the space and get excited about it in that way. So again, that hasn't changed and I think that's a good thing and why I still love doing this work.
Kate Ramsdell:
I appreciate your optimism from the two of you, that's why I like spending time with you.
Lee Coffin:
But I call him happy hide. Happy hide is nothing but optimistic always.
Kate Ramsdell:
Maybe I'll deepen that question a little bit. I think the last couple of years I believe have created a lot of anxiety, right? That just seems like, and especially for teenagers, the things that they care about, a lot of those things haven't really happened in the same ways that they may have previously. And I couple that with what we've all talked about before, which is this rising number of applications and sure, I have my narrative, but now I can't get in anywhere. And so I loved what you said, Matt, about the self-reflection piece, because we really lean on that in our office and sometimes worry that kids and families don't spend enough time on that essential part of this process. But I'm always talking to kids about agency, right?
What can you control? What can't you control? And then to be frank, on my side it seems like there are some parts of this where kids had agency before that that's slipping through our fingers. Early action used to serve the student more than it does today I believe. Early decision I actually still think serves both parties in meaningful ways, even though sometimes families don't believe that. But what do you think? What are the controllables? You talked a little bit about them, but what else could you offer to kids and families?
Matt Hyde:
Yeah, I would start with the reality, the fact even, that the power throughout this whole experience largely exists with the young people and their families. The three main choices to be made in this whole experience of searching for and applying to college, where to look and where to apply, that's with the students and the families, who has opportunity to attend and be admitted, that's up to Lee and to me and our colleagues, and then where to enroll, that's up to the student and their family. So two of the three main choice to be made exist in the hands of these young people and their families. So they are in my mind forever in control. It might not feel like it, especially if they are conditioned to this idea that they have to apply to a certain set of colleges that are massively selective.
But the reality is if these young people in the class of 2023, if they want to go to college, they can go to college. They are 578 days away but they just need to open up their heart and mind and have fun adventuring into this experience, not enduring a process. And that's what drives me bananas is that young people and their families feel like they need to become a product for college and endure a college process as opposed to have a college journey. And I think I refer to it as a rite of passage moment that can be celebrated. So again, I can go into a million different directions with this, but I often look to Lee for guidance and I'm curious to hear his thoughts on this.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I keep pondering this economics 101 reality where it's supply and demand. And I think so much of the worry is generated by abundant demand, limited supply at a very small subset of high profile places. And I mean, my podcast focuses a lot on that space because I think that's where the process gets the most gummy and the people are the most worried, but Matt makes a really important point that the broad landscape remains quite open. And I think it's important to just calibrate. And I think part of what's tricky if I were a college counselor sitting in a high school right now trying to knit together a list for the most high achieving ambitious kiddos in my junior class, it's getting the students and their parents to digest the supply demand proposition, the great scarcity in this very limited zone and to see beyond that, and that's easier said than done, but I think that's the challenge.
And I see it very acutely in independent schools, in suburban schools, suburban publics, and a lot of the international communities where there's a premium on a certain outcome. And as opposed to access to college and to celebrate, Hey, you're going for a four year degree. I mean, there's a lot of other places where that outcome is the confetti moment. Anyway, so I think that's part of the challenge right now. And as admit rates drop, trying to help someone understand how to navigate that I think that's a tricky proposition. I would say, or to ask Kate, at this early moment of the junior year, selectivity feels like a later chapter in this book, you need to explore and discover and imagine, be optimistic, try on the different... It's like a shopping trip.
You're trying on all sorts of different sweaters before you say, I love this one. And then once you narrow that down, then there's that more practical, strategic, okay is this realistic? I mean, a degree of realism should probably inform the beginning. So someone saying, "I'm going to Dartmouth." I mean, you can slow that train down when you say, "Well, my friend, that's not realistic. I mean, you can go look, but you're setting yourself up for disappointment based on the data we have and what usually happens there later." Does that sound right Kate?
Kate Ramsdell:
That sounds right. And I would say we've talked about this in our office for years, but figuring out what those criteria are, right? Location, size, cost and aid, campus culture, whether or not you have a special interest that's going to define your search and doing all of those things before you get to the selectivity question so that you've done a really good job.
Lee Coffin:
So you're describing the variables of the discovery period.
Kate Ramsdell:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So let's be practical for a moment. So if you're a student listening from a high school that were Kate someone like you is not in the building. What can somebody do at home to map this at the beginning? If you got a pencil in your hand and you're sketching out like, okay, what's my to-do list? How do I do the reflection that Matt is in advising? Where did the pragmatics start here?
Kate Ramsdell:
Yeah. So I would say a couple of different things you could think about. One is very practically speaking, what kind of learner are you? Do you like to have small classes where you have lots of discussion? Are you somebody who could really sit in a lecture and take good notes and manage your life that way? And that might lead you to a conversation about size. Embedded in size might also be what program do I want? Do I want what would be called a liberal arts education, which you can get at Dartmouth and you can get it at Lafayette where I'm studying a breadth of things and maybe it isn't until my sophomore year that I have to identify a major? Or do I want a place where I could get a more specialized undergraduate education in business or nursing or engineering?
And if that's the case, what does that look like? And can I find that at a small school? At Lafayette, you can study engineering, at Dartmouth, you can study engineering, right? But you may not be able to get an undergraduate business degree or nursing, right? And does that matter to you? Are you somebody who is able to travel far away from home cost wise and are you up for an adventure? Are you somebody who wants to stay a little bit closer to home and for a whole host of really good reasons? Are you thinking out what you need to thrive in terms of a campus environment? So could I be really happy at a rural enclosed campus where more or less everything I'm going to do is in that isolated community, or am I somebody who really needs the vibrancy?
Not that a rural community can't be vibrant, they can be very vibrant, but the stimulation of a city for a whole host of different reasons. And we talked about costs. These are all negotiables. For some kids the key driver is going to be whether or not they can afford to go. So it's not going to matter if it's big, small, urban, rural, and it doesn't mean it takes choice out of the hands of kids who need aid, but sometimes in the end that's going to be the primary reason they do choose a place. And so I think and just more and more too I say to kids, I know you can be happy in a lot of different environments especially in my water that I swim in, it's really having an open mind and knowing that even if you choose a small liberal arts college, there are a couple hundred out there that are great, where you could be really happy as opposed to five.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, I've heard you use the phrase non-negotiable, and I've adopted that as a word I use when I'm talking to juniors is you've laid out an expansive list of possible criteria. And then I think step two is to look at those different elements and say, are there any non-negotiables? I met a student years ago who was determined to find a campus with proximity to a jazz scene. I mean, something really specific but really true to who that person was. And I said, "Well, then that's a nonnegotiable." I mean, because there could be a lot of wonderful colleges that you might really like, but if that is the deal breaker start there. And if it's cost, you need a scholarship or I've had friends who've said to their kids, "I can pay for it. I choose not to. So go find a merit scholarship."
Now that's a completely different element, because I don't offer a merit. So if that is going to be the decision point, why set yourself up for disappointment X months from now if you know that a merit scholarship or even the possibility of one is going to make the door open or close. So I think these non-negotiables are really important and some of the other priorities might change. And I often told the story about I wasn't dialed into location when I started my college search, but as I started to explore, I came to an epiphany on my own about rural which my sister always tells me, "How ironic. Look where you live now." But this was when I was 17 and I realized en route that I was more of a city person. And I pivoted, to use Matt's word, towards urban options once I started to come away from some of my more rural campuses and say, "I don't see myself here." Other people go the other direction and they get to these, okay, you need to just raise your hand. You see a campus in a more wooded location, you think Nirvana, and you may not have understood that before you got there. Those are the discoveries.
Kate Ramsdell:
That's right. And sometimes I'll say to kids, just remember, it's typically four years, maybe five years of your life that you're going to spend there. And part of my choice making was, I don't think I'm going to live in a rural environment when I'm an adult. I can live in a city for the rest of my life so why wouldn't I have this adventure, right?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, it also depends on this fit piece too. What do you want to do when you're on that campus? I mean, I look up my window and I see the remnants of a blizzard. And if you are someone who are skier or you're outdoorsy and you want that almost Scandinavian winter Wonderland, hello. But if that makes you run the other way, see you later. Yeah.
Matt Hyde:
And Kate, I think it's so important for the young people that you're working with to give them permission to get excited and to surprise themselves. I fear that they feel like there's only a certain number of schools that they're allowed to get excited about. And I have a lot of fun blowing people's minds about how powerful and compelling Lafayette is. And sometimes they're approaching us with a side eye like, "You weren't on my list, but someone put you on my list and I'm checking you out." And it's fun to watch them realize, wait a second, this is it. This could be a wonderful fit and match for me. And to allow them to open up, to let them wrap their head and heart around us. And I think too many students are driven by the prestige factor and they shut themselves down to so many great opportunities that might be perfect for them.
Lee Coffin:
And Matt is that when you... I just wrote down side eye. Do you get a side eye because of prestige, they haven't heard of you? What's causing them to give you that little skeptical look?
Matt Hyde:
Well, it depends, especially a student coming from further afield. I mean, Lafayette has a wonderful presence in deep roots in the north east, especially for students who are thinking about liberal arts, engineering, division one athletics, access to two cool cities. But when someone happens upon us from Florida, from Texas, from Chicago or California, they have serviced in their search and they get on the campus like, whoa, wow, look at this. And it's just that initial like my friends haven't heard about this place, teachers haven't heard about this place. And that creates a little more of a barrier for colleges that aren't as known in secondary and tertiary markets. But the minute we engage and inspire these folks, they head back to their communities and their visit reverberates and it helps create word of mouth traffic. So this is where I just hope that college counselors across the land and Kate is one of the best in the world, empower these students to realize yeah, you get to make some choices here and you're allowed to get excited and you're allowed to be surprised and surprise yourself along the way.
Lee Coffin:
And what's tricky about the comment… Well, step back, how does anybody hear of anywhere? I had a nephew who was an athlete who was focused on... When he was a kid he would say, "I'm going to the University of Miami." And I would say, "You're 10 years old. How do you know that?" And it was football. I mean, he was attracted to what he was seeing at ESPN. And as he got older, he ended up not following that idea, but he had heard of it. And I often think about the role of sports in setting expectations of familiarity around college identity. I work for a place in a league that many people see as a brand. And I had a conversation with a dad a couple years ago who was arguing with me about what Ivy League meant.
And I said, "It's an athletic conference." He said, "No, it's a brand." And I said, "It has brand-like associations, but it's an athletic conference." And he was dumbfounded by this concept that it was actually like the big 10. And I said, "Yeah, it's a division one athletic league." But that's the trap, is you gravitate towards something you think you know, and sometimes quality and fits that's in a place that might be small, might be quieter, might not be in a city with a big media spotlight on it but that doesn't mean you wouldn't go there and thrive. And Kate, how do you back someone up from that?
Kate Ramsdell:
It can be hard. And I think I've had a huge privilege of probably getting onto 200, 220 college campuses in this country and abroad. And so I often say to my kids at the beginning of a search, I can get excited about a lot, but a part of it is because it's more concrete for me. I can picture these places. I've walked in the buildings, I've seen the kids, I've been on the marketing tour and they've all been great. And I think hopefully the access to virtual programming might do something for us in that way, right? I wrote down a question for myself earlier today, which is the on-campus college visit dead? And I don't know, it probably never will be, but for more and more families it's a huge amount of resources to get out there and get to campuses. And so now it will be curious to see how much more. Maybe you guys do longitudinal studies, did somebody never say at foot on our campus and yet came here, because that'll be true of the last couple of years and it probably always has been for certain kids, but at what percentage of your community will never have set foot on campus. I'm wondering about that. Will it open-
Lee Coffin:
Historically it was low, but I think you're right it has shifted. And I just wonder if the whole calendar of college admissions doesn't rearrange itself. I mean, when I think about the 2018, 19 cycle which would've been the last one that was complete before the pandemic, we had in April two multi-day open houses or some people were flown in, people would show up with their parents, they stayed in the dorms. It was a carnival for a couple of days on campus that invited them to take a last look. We were flying all around the country and to some degree of the world doing admitted student programs with our alumni. Does that come back or is April the time when you do need to be in person? But the idea of spending chunks of your spring summer fall touring I think people will always need... I think there's always something important about place and actually feeling it and seeing it and smelling it.
And I think as you go across the demographic spectrum, I think for some first gen kids who don't have the same cultural framework, being in person is really important. I think for underrepresented students who may have to assess comfort level with place, that's really, really important. And you could do that online, but I think it's harder than when you can be there. But I think this is the unanswered question as we move forward is what snaps back into place because we missed it and it was valuable. What starts to snap back into place because it's what we've always done. And that's always an operating principle that makes me nuts. But I think that's some of this pandemic jitter too, is we've been trying to force the 20th century system into this pandemic moment.
Kate Ramsdell:
The idea of control for me comes back to a lot of what we're talking about, which is as app numbers go up and kids are casting wider and wider nets to colleges they've either seen or haven't seen and are leaning on selectivity to build their lists. I would argue that what you really should do is have a list of 10 schools that you know you can get into, and then you got one or two, if you want to take a flyer, go for it. But that way you don't have the at panic of, I don't even know if I'm going to get in anywhere. What happens if in March I've been wait listed and denied at every school on my list. And I worry that's the territory that families that are focusing on selectivity and an outdated understanding of how hard it is to get in into places are headed towards. And so that's again where I say be smart, be strategic, build a small smart list, go for the-
Lee Coffin:
But that's at the end, right? I mean, bring them back to February of their junior year, how do they begin?
Matt Hyde:
I mean, I think it's important we talked about introspection even before they have a list of colleges it's knowing and caring for yourself in this moment. Who are you? What matters to you? And let that inform how you look at colleges and lead to the point that you made. I'm hoping the person comes back, comes roaring back because these young people are visceral creatures. They need to be in these places and spaces and see and hear the people in three dimensions, not in this Zoom space. So I'm hoping that comes back and comes back quick because it empowers them to gain stronger footing in knowing what they want and why they want it. So I'm hoping that comes back relatively quickly, but I think in February you begin with the introspection and that taking stock of who you are and what matters to you.
Lee Coffin:
And then what? You've looked at the mirror, you've-
Matt Hyde:
Yeah, then I look to Kate. I mean, Kate has been on 250 college and university campuses. I look to Kate like, all right, well, I'm thinking I want an intimate college experience either at a college or university. I want to have breadth of opportunity and explore across disciplines and not a city, go. And I think Kate right there is probably processing lots of colleges, but there are also a lot of resources that exist for anybody to access that to do that.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. What are those resources? I was just going to ask you that. So Kate, where would you point someone that doesn't have a full-time college counselor in his high school?
Kate Ramsdell:
I mean, I think the College Board has big future. I think that's a good place to start. And if you've ever made an account, you have access to it. There are things like the Princeton review online that you can do a college search and put it in your criteria, and it can help guide you. There are certainly books. I don't know if anybody looks at a book anymore, but if they wanted to look at Fisk or something like that, they could. And maybe you're at a school that has something like Naviance. And if you do, there's a college search feature on that. And lots of public and independent schools use Naviance. So there are places you can go at least to start. And if you put in some information about your background and your grades and your scores, if you have them, in addition to all of these other things, it should get you started maybe with a list of 15 schools. And again, back to that idea of the open mind, look at schools you've never heard of. Everybody gravitates toward the place that they know the name, but you might discover something really fun and exciting.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And I think that's where the build out over the last two years on top of what we've all been doing since the early 2000s on web, social, all these different platforms come together and create different insight than were there definitely when I applied. It was my mailbox where everything arrived and I would read to your clip about books. I mean, that's what I did. So for parents, if that's what you did, there's a whole ocean that has opened on this space and that's overwhelming, but it's also a way to continue to metaphor, swim a little bit and say like, what do I see? And something is open ended as I'm pre-med. So you're starting to search as a pre-med. Okay, go on the college website type in pre-med or pre-health would be the other way it's often described, what do you find?
Is there advising? Is there a course of study that's called pre-med or not? A lot of times it's no. You major in whatever you want and you apply to med school with the help of faculty advisors. My niece is pre-med right now at Boston college. And I have enjoyed listening to her talk about the organic chemistry and cell biology and calculus courses she's taking, I think. Wow. And what was interesting to me is she didn't really think about that when she was in high school. I mean, she was pre-med without having ever stepped back and say, well, what will the curriculum be? And in her case, she loves it, but it's been eye-opening as a uncle who works at a college to see how her undergraduate experience on her way to medical school is so profoundly different than what I experienced as a history major and the courses I'm taking.
So that's program and that's for any parent who wants to help, you can sit on a computer and look at these websites and look at the departmental offering and say, "Hey child, are you intrigued by these courses or do they make you think why would I want to study that?" And I guess my last question as we help the junior start rolling, when do they need to have some clarity, Kate? When does the calendar start to tap them on the shoulder and say, "Okay, enough wandering about. Start to be more definitive." When does that start?
Kate Ramsdell:
So February today, I'm saying you're starting with these working hypotheses, right? That are going to be iterative. That's what we've talked about. And you're going to discover more about yourself and more about what's out there. Hopefully going to spend this spring doing some research that could include college visits on campuses or online. It could include doing reading and all of the things we're talking about over the summer. I think you need to really hone in on what's going to begin to be your "final list" so that by the time you arrive in the fall of your senior year, you have a really good sense of what your plan is. Begin to think about when you're going to apply, where you're going to apply. And I always say to my kids, "Let's not be reactive in December." If you don't get good news at some place you've been, do everything, plan to get everything done by the early fall, because senior year is really busy.
Lee Coffin:
So discovery is a six-month window is what I heard you say. It takes you from February till early September. And I think for those of you who are feeling a little panicked, take a breath, take a walk, go make some cookies and just remember you have a long window here. It will move quickly. You can't just wait and procrastinate, but you don't need to make decisions today about where you're going to be 578 days from now as Matt so precisely put it. Kate and Matt, thanks so much for this double dip pod. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Admission Beat. For those of you listening from the search platform, come join us, subscribe to the Admission Beat wherever you find your podcasts. And for those of you on the Admission Beat who are intrigued by this idea of the search, go subscribe. They're 24 episodes plus a couple of bonuses will take you from the beginning to the end of a search in logical progression. And for those of you who have questions, send them to me at admissionsbeat@dartmouth.edu and we will answer them in an upcoming episode.
I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. See you next week.