Season 2: Episode 9 Transcript
Decoding Transcripts
Lee Coffin:
From Dartmouth College, this is Lee Coffin, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid. Welcome to the Admissions Beat.
So a transcript is the heart of any candidacy. It's fundamental. It's the way we look at curriculum and grades. It's the way we understand academic achievement and potential. A transcript certifies your academic preparation. It certifies a student's ability to thrive in the curriculum offered at a particular college. It gives us a way of understanding how you might perform in a classroom, what kind of impact you might have in that space. But here's another important part of our review of a transcript. As we shape and fill the classrooms on a campus, we're looking for curious people. We're looking for a lively conversationalist. We're looking for people who have ideas and like to bat those around. But we also need to ensure that every student in that classroom is comparably prepared. And the reason that's important is the demographics of the student bodies who come together on a campus, like the one where I work.
Just using Dartmouth as my example, last year we had applications from over 7,000 different high schools around the world. When the class came together in September, 1,125 students represented 911 different high schools in this one class alone. And when I think about those 911 high schools, I think both, "Wow, that's an amazing degree of diversity." But the schools, whether they're public high schools, charter high schools, independent, religious-based, homeschooled, International Baccalaureate, AP, a school in Panama, or a school in Pennsylvania, all of those teachers in all of those schools taught in their own particular way, graded in their own particular way. And students learned through that type of pedagogy. And what the admission process has to do to the degree possible is standardize it.
And so this episode of Admissions Beat kind of helps you think about a transcript. How does an Admission Officer decode it and understand what's available in that school? How does a student pursue a particular curriculum? And how are the grades in that curriculum assessed? So this encore episode of Admissions Beat, which aired last November, features a college counselor from a Quaker school in Baltimore, a college counselor from a public high school in Los Angeles, and my colleague from Johns Hopkins thinking about transcripts, but also the context with which we consider that fundamental academic record as part of the admission process. So I'm happy to reintroduce you to my friends and colleagues, Calvin Wise, from Johns Hopkins, Darryl Tiggle from Friends School of Baltimore, and Candice Mackey from LACES Los Angeles as this encore episode of Admission Beat comes to you today.
So Darryl, why is this a topic?
Darryl Tiggle:
Well, in terms of the work that we do, and I'm going to be narrowing my focus as a college counselor at a Quaker school with no APs, no ranking, no weighting of our GPA, it's really important that we be able to give the world that's looking at our students an understanding of the context of our school. So what I often say about the school profile in so much as the transcript is a profile of the student, the school profile is kind of a transcript of the school. It talks about our academic program, sort of our mission, our curriculum. So it helps us communicate with the external community in a way that we might not be able to do with everyone. So it's just our lead sheet to let people know what our school does and what our students are studying and pursuing.
Lee Coffin:
And so we're joined by Calvin Wise, who is the Director of Recruitment at Johns Hopkins University. Hi, Calvin.
Calvin Wise:
Hey, how are you? Good to be here.
Lee Coffin:
I'm good. Nice to see you again. And Candice Mackey is a college counselor at Los Angeles Center for Enriched Studies in LA. Hi, Candice, nice to see you again.
Candice Mackey:
Hi, Lee. Hi, everyone. Really good to see you all again, as well.
Lee Coffin:
But Darryl, is there controversy around this topic? So let's have a conversation about this. Why? Why are people talking about school profiles right now?
Darryl Tiggle:
One of the things that may have brought on the focus on the profile, and my college colleagues and Candice, correct me if I'm wrong, in so much as people were wondering, what are colleges going to dig into? What are they going to bite into to evaluate students in the absence of testing? All right, so things like rigor of curriculum, grade distributions, things like that. We imagined, as college counselors, those might be things that college admissions folks are going to look more closely in the absence of testing. So we were particularly happy at Friends School that we've always had a really robust and comprehensive profile to communicate to really everyone, colleges, even potential families that might be looking at our school, what our school is about in terms of its mission and its academic piece.
But in terms of how it's going to be used, we wanted to make sure that in admissions, when our applications arrived without testing, that the schools had a really good way to contextualize our students.
Lee Coffin:
And Candice, you're at a larger public high school in LA, with a bigger caseload than Darryl. How does the profile help you do what he just said?
Candice Mackey:
Yes, the profile, the school profile, is incredibly important for our school, for our community in, I think, really being able to convey a lot of information that colleges may not otherwise have or be aware of as it pertains to our campus, our student demographics. This is information that it's critical to be added to the school profile in addition to looking at other things within our community, and looking at other measurements as admissions reps are evaluating our students and really just having an understanding of LACES. And yes, we are an urban school. We are a Title I school, public high school. And we serve several students who come from at least 40 different zip codes across Los Angeles County.
So our school profile, as I mentioned before, it's just a really important piece that we always strive to update and make sure that we're really communicating lots of details that otherwise may not really be recognizable if you just looked on our website.
Lee Coffin:
Or if you just look at the transcript. And Calvin, as you're starting to read applications, how does the profile factor into this work?
Calvin Wise:
And I want to preface this by saying, Lee and I, we represent schools that are selective, that also practice a holistic admissions review. Not all schools are looking at applications in this way. But those who are selective are usually practicing holistic review. And so we are digging into the application deeper than the numbers. And you hear the word context being thrown around a lot as it relates to holistic review, because we are trying to understand the context of where students are coming from. I think one of the most common misconceptions that I see or hear in working with students and families and some counselors is that, particularly at schools that are selective, we're not solely reviewing a student's application with the aim of rewarding their past success. We're really trying to figure out their future potential and predict their future potential on our campus.
And it's easy to look at a transcript and say, in a very black and white, "Was this student successful or not?" But I think that we are taking a little bit more nuanced look in trying to figure out and predict the student's potential. And the profile itself gives us a sense of how that student has navigated the opportunities available to them and can help us glean how that student may take advantage of the opportunities available to us. And so there's definitely a lot of layers. And as we're thinking about a student's academic character, their story, how they've navigated their educational environment and the profile really serves as the base for us to start understanding that.
Even at a place like Hopkins, where we have a regional model, where we have staff members who are the experts for their region, their job is to be knowledgeable about the students that are coming from their region, we still see new schools. We may have new staff members. And so we have to continually educate ourselves. That profile is crucial in understanding that school context to get a better sense of how the student is doing.
Lee Coffin:
I agree. I think it's one of those hidden pieces that is so central to the way you read a file. So Darryl, you work at a school. It's a small school. Your caseload's smaller. How does your transcript attach to your profile?
Darryl Tiggle:
Well, I'll get that. But I also wanted to carry on something that Candice said about updating things that are going on in our school. So one of the things that happened at our school recently, as we had the arrival of a master teacher, science teacher, who had taught an AP curriculum prior to coming to Friends School and Friends School students who were taking advanced bio for the last several years were used to getting As and very few As are being granted in that advance bio. So that is something that we're highlighting in our profile so that they see when a transcript of a student, who looks like a pretty straight A student pops a B or just there's something aberrant in their transcript, our profile actually highlights that. We produce our own profile. So we can really keep up-to-date things in our profile that sort of mirror our transcript.
So I often say that I'm a college admissions guy disguised as a college counselor. So a lot of the things that I put in my profile is to not advantage our students in an unfair way, but to really help communicate to the colleges what our students are doing. So our profile also gives a great distribution of how the students have fared in their junior year courses to get an understanding of how they're performing. And then we do a couple different things in terms of highlighting the curriculum where we're a pretty flat curriculum. We do have some advanced courses. But our curriculum is always highlighted in the profile in the way that a reader can transfer back and forth from the transcript to the profile very easily. And ascertain how rigorous that course might be, what kind of progression that student has taken in a discipline.
Lee Coffin:
Well, you say you're an admissions officer hiding in a college counselor's body, but you were an admissions officer. So I'm thinking that maybe that informs your sense of the profile as something valuable.
Darryl Tiggle:
decision-makingVery much so. I know it helps admissions counselors read applications. I know that clarity and context helps them put the applicant and the applicant school in a framework that they can understand. If it's just one child applying from that school or if it's 20 students applying from the same school, the transcript and profile will help give them some insight that will inform their decision making.
Lee Coffin:
What about demographics? How does that factor in a profile? And why is that important? I mean, Candice mentioned students at LACES come from 40 different zip codes, which is remarkably heterogeneous for a public school to have that kind of pull. But why would you tell us that?
Candice Mackey:
Well, I feel incredibly grateful to work at such a diverse school and diverse community. So I think it's so important that for all of us to be aware of the different communities that we serve and whatever that may be. For LACES, there's a lot of diversity within ethnicity, within socioeconomic status. We also provide on our school profile how many students participate in our school busing program. So this is helpful for Admissions to understand that LACES is not a school that's like a residential school or a neighborhood school. So we do have some students who are attending the school and they live local in the area. And it may only take them 10 minutes to get to school. But we also have students who are traveling and they're spending anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half in the morning with their commute or perhaps even going home.
So this is important for everyone, for all of us to be aware of, as you're really thinking about each individual student, where they're coming from. And when we're talking about looking at evaluating students holistically, holistic means identities or that involves identities and communities in addition to academics and other transcripts.
Lee Coffin:
I love that point. And I wrote down, a minute ago, Calvin said, "Deeper than the numbers," and that's what you just put an exclamation point on that, Candice, where I think people outside of school or college roles get caught on the numbers. The numbers seem to mean something. And they do. But context also means something. And the number without the context doesn't work, I think. Calvin, can you think of an example or two of where you were recently reading a file where the profile helped illuminate the context of the student?
Calvin Wise:
Yeah, and I think Candice gave a great one. And when we talk about our process and the role of admissions officers, we like to say that our staff are researchers. And our process is evidence-based. So they're pulling together pieces in the application, finding different aspects of evidence that build a broader picture as to who the student is. And a good example, when students have long commutes to and from home, you may come across a student who... And students, their extracurricular involvement may be light. And it could be because of a variety of different reasons, but one of which could be because they are up at five in the morning, they're getting ready to go to school and they have a long commute to get home, and they can't stay late for school-based activities. And so I think the commute, where students are coming from is a big one.
I think course offerings as we understand how students took advantage of opportunities available to them, understanding what those opportunities are across higher-level courses is one that we talk a lot about. And that's something that may change from year to year, as you have teachers coming in and out. And so that's why, as you mentioned, Lee, it's important to look at it, even for schools that you're familiar with each year to better understand that. I think the other one that's a little bit more nuanced is we're institutions that are global. And if you think about students across the country, I was just reading an application from a student where only 20% of students in the graduating class went to a four-year school. And this student attended a school in Wyoming. The kid's from Wyoming. So not only are only 20% of students going to college, this kid is now thinking about going to Hopkins in Baltimore.
So when you think about the environment, it doesn't take much imagination to understand the environment that student's coming from and how probably the student's going against the grain in regards to the college culture or the opportunities after high school. And so I think that provides an additional context and color for the application, as well.
Lee Coffin:
No, I'm really glad you used that for your college example, because it's one of those data points on a profile that is so critically important that most people don't even think about it. But as the admission officer, it really is a signal about what's the college-going culture in this school, and this community, and the families in that community and that 20% to a four-year college on top of leaving a rural Wyoming environment going to Baltimore. I mean, you're right, you get a sense of, "Okay, this kid's courageous." He or she is leaving a community where that's not the norm. I was reading one recently and the student was from rural Oregon, another rural one, where it was 40 miles south of Portland, Oregon in an agricultural region of the state. And the profile talked about that, that said, "We are an agrarian economy. Most people are farmers or work in the lumber industry. And very few of our students leave this region."
And to your point, here was a student saying, "I see a future that is different than this one." And then the rest of the applications she wrote her essay about inseminating pigs on her farm. And you kind of put the essay in the context of place and say, "Okay, here's a pig farmer applying. And she wants to be a vet." And you start to see the way that puzzle adds up. Darryl's laughing as I say that. Do you have any pig farmers at Friends?
Darryl Tiggle:
No, I love the story. But the other thing I realize as a participant in this conversation is I've just discovered a huge blind spot in our own profile at Friends School as I was listening to Candice describe the context of the students. We talk about the context of the school. That's described in the transcript. But the context of the student body is super important. And my profile does not have comprehensive context on my student body. As I was looking, we've got 40% students of color. I don't say that in my profile. We've got 30% of our students on financial aid, who are at private schools. So, I guess, that's a blind spot that I was blind to. And so I'm so happy that that was revealed in this conversation. I'm revising my new profile conversation. Thank you.
Lee Coffin:
Actually, we've already served a purpose. We've helped Darryl. But it's because you're in a Quaker school. And you're like Candice, you're probably pulling people from a broader geographical area than people might presume.
Darryl Tiggle:
We draw and it's sort of the narrative of Baltimore. It's kind of for many different reasons, a private school city for secondary school. And there's several of them. And they all have their own identity. And they're pretty distinct identities. So it's something that I do need to... I'm learning and growing in this, because that's something... Baltimore's a different place in many ways. And the profile is super important to understand about the dozen or so secondary schools that many people send their children to.
Lee Coffin:
I mean, another little nugget that I've started digging out of the profile is the percentage of students on free and reduced-priced lunch. And that's particularly important in urban schools or rural schools, where the socioeconomic situation is important to know. And on our reader form, we type that in now when we pull it off a transcript, to know what's that situation in the local school? Candice, do you talk about that on your profile?
Candice Mackey:
Oh, yes, absolutely. That is definitely one of the identity demographic community markers that I am highlighting or just mentioning. So our profile, it covers our students who are eligible for free or reduced lunch, that percentage. As I mentioned before, we do cover the amount of students who are bused in. And then, of course, the breakdown of our ethnicities. And one thing that we mentioned, and this may not be so much of a big deal, but I really try to be mindful of representing the different ethnicities that we do serve. And so one thing that we added, or that I added this year to our profile, was the category for students identifying as biracial or mixed. That is something that has actually increased. In terms of capturing that data each year, you want to update your profile every year. And you really want to look at it in every which way. And so that's one area of our demographics that I have made an update to.
Lee Coffin:
Well, it gets to Darryl's point that the profile tells the story of the school and the community it serves. And if you're Calvin or Lee reading a file, it helps us meet the person where they are. What other information goes on these profiles? So to someone who's never seen one, and this might seem mysterious, is it a reason to be suspicious? Or is this document a straight-up representation of place and curriculum?
Darryl Tiggle:
I think it's straight up. I'm going to just march down mine and give you each heading. And then I had another thing that I drew from the last conversation we were having. So ours gives the sort of just name, address, location, website, what have you. Then we talk about our school's mission, the curriculum, graduation requirements. We do a grade distribution chart for the class, which full disclosure, since we're not a ranking school and when I worked at Admissions, it just drove me crazy trying to get right. I wanted to make sure that schools had some way to ascertain where our students fell. We give a mean, a high, a low GPA. We give some national merit information. And then we commit at least a couple pages to diagrams of the curriculum, just so that people understand that it's not going to say IB, it's not going to say AP, but please know that it is a rich and rigorous curriculum.
And that's something that we really lean into. Then again, we give... I'm sorry. There's a GPA distribution early on and then a junior-year class distribution. And then we talk about special programs, a little bit about standardized testing. And then we give our college list.
Lee Coffin:
That's a lot of data.
Darryl Tiggle:
That's a lot of data. It's a lot of data. But one of the things that we had talked about earlier in terms of one of the purposes of the profile, an equity tool, because Candice and I are at two different places. Where I get to sit with college counselors four or five a day, I'm only counseling 40 students. So I've got a little bit more time on my hands. She's juggling way more students. So she may not have as much face time with college people. The profile enables her to talk to many, many, many different people. And when it's as comprehensive as hers in terms of providing equity insight, the college Admissions folks can really get a clear picture of these are the children who are coming from this school. And these are the lives they're living. And that's super important. So again, I've got a whole bunch of work to do now, because that is so, so important. But that's a long answer to what's on our program.
Lee Coffin:
No, it's an important answer, because I think every school maps it out differently with words, and numbers, and graphs, and charts, and lists. And there's no perfect answer to that. I can't say, "This is the best one." But there are some that aren't very good. Calvin, when do you come upon a file and say, "Oh, this profile isn't helpful"?
Calvin Wise:
When a lot of the information is missing, particularly around the academic context, what's offered, the curriculum. Limitations, some schools limit students from taking certain classes depending on if you're in a special program and maybe depending on what you took in the ninth grade. And so I think that as we're having this conversation, what's top of mind for me is we're in the reading process. So I'm thinking about the things that are necessary for me to understand from a reading lens. But I think, and again, another misconception about our process is that we enroll through our recruitment process. It starts early, early on. And I think that, and we do this in our office, I think it's wise for admissions offices to have their regional officers look at profiles when they're thinking about the recruitment process, before they interact with the schools, to understand the communities and maybe prioritize some information.
If this is a school that has a high percentage of students who are on free and reduced lunch, maybe you bring a financial aid brochure. Or maybe you make sure you're highlighting some of your financial aid policies. If the school has a special program that's a global studies something-or-other, that might be helpful for you to know so that you can be prepared to talk about that. So as much as we talk about profiles being helpful in the selection process, I think that... And that's where my head is now. And when I think about helpful profiles, it's definitely about the curriculum, and the academic offerings, and the students that are there. I think there are definitely some other pieces that I know we use in our office that get a better understanding about the community itself so that we are ready to engage with the school at that point in time.
Lee Coffin:
And if the profile's a little underdeveloped, where do you find the information otherwise?
Calvin Wise:
So in our process, we require either the common app or a coalition application. And there is a secondary school report. So a counselor will fill out some information that provides some basic demographics info. And then there may be some other pieces. Teachers, we require two teacher letters of recommendation and counselor letter, a recommendation. So oftentimes counselors or teachers will bring up some stuff. Sometimes students bring up things about their school in the application, additional information. So again, it's a lot of things that may pop up. And we're kind of, as researchers, trying to find that. But it really helps us out if it's all consolidated on the front end in the school profile.
Lee Coffin:
I love how you refer to admission officers as researchers, because it really is the task at hand, when you're reading that. I mean, you're a recruiter during one part of the year. And you're a party planner in some other parts of the year. But when you're reading a file, you're sifting through the story someone put together. And the researcher says, "Oh, look, it's the guy who gave everybody Cs this year saying she's the best student in the class." And that's context.
Darryl Tiggle:
And Calvin, I'm sending you a couple of those scholars.
Calvin Wise:
So we'll have to circle back to that conversation later.
Lee Coffin:
The Washington Post had a story recently about the mastery transcripts. And what's that? What's this new twist on a high school transcript? And the idea that they're moving away from maybe letters and numbers and more towards a more qualitative assessment. Do you have any thoughts on that as either people read about it in the Post or a school might say, "Hey, we're shifting away from what would be a more ABC, 100 down kind of transcript to something that tells a story quite literally"?
Darryl Tiggle:\
Well, our school, and it's really been more the academic dean, the principal, the faculty have explored it and toyed with it. I think they're somewhat compelled by it. I don't know that teachers love it. As a college counselor, it was a little hard for me to get my... I kind of like the data. And we're a zero to a hundred point GPA school. But it's something as a Quaker school, as we talk about narrative and evolving our practices, I'm not very well versed in it, though, however.
Lee Coffin:
I haven't seen very many. Calvin, have you encountered many as a reader?
Calvin Wise:
Not yet. I mean, not mastery. We've seen other transcripts that had the same aim. I think it's important to acknowledge in thinking about how we work with young people, moving away from this achievement by a number or a grade. And we talk a lot about it on the college side, right Lee, about love of learning and intellectual curiosity, and academic character. And that's what we ultimately are looking for.
Darryl Tiggle:
So one of the things I'm curious about from my college colleagues is I've got a few questions about different ways of doing things and wanted to get your feelings on them. Narrative or GPA? Lee?
Lee Coffin:
GPA.
Darryl Tiggle:
All right. Calvin?
Calvin Wise:
I would say GPA.
Darryl Tiggle:
All right.
Lee Coffin:
Narrative comes in the teacher req. So I have narratives in other parts of the file. Did I just blow your mind, Darryl?
Darryl Tiggle:
Nope. I'm with you. I'm with you on the same page. One of the categories is weighted GPA versus unweighted GPA. And for the audience who may be listening, weighted GPA means that they give a little bit more credit for a course that's accelerated, or honors, or more rigorous. Where in an unweighted GPA curriculum, say for instance, it's a zero to hundred, you can max out at a hundred. Where in a weighted grade point system, it might be a 4.0 unweighted system, where with weighting, a student can grow to a 5.0. Did that make sense?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, so the A in an honors class could count for five points. And then in a college prep course might count for four.
Darryl Tiggle:
Yes. But at Friends School of Baltimore, we do it the good, old-fashioned, 100% way.
Lee Coffin:
These are the little details that people get distracted by-
Darryl Tiggle:
You're right, you're right.
Lee Coffin:
... on a transcript. And they forget. When I read a transcript, I'm looking for trends. I look to see, this is a mostly A student, but I see some B+s popping up. And I always look to see is that B+ in the same subject every year? And a lot of times it is. And it's this language student is getting a B+ in math every year. And so I write, "A student with a B+ in math. Or it's a math-science kid who is getting A+s in those STEM-oriented courses." And you can say, "Okay, your aptitude is really flying there and it syncs up with your testing."
So with all that on the transcript, that's where the transcript and the profile sync up. So you can see what are the patterns in the school, what is the level of rigor available that the student may or may not take? I read one this morning where the school profile said, "We allow students to take two AP courses a year. We teach 20 AP courses, but you can only take two a year." So I was like, "Okay, this person had four. And that was the max for junior, senior year." So it was four out of four, as opposed to a more sloppy way of reading it would've been four out of 20. But that was not possible in that high school. And that's where the profile helped me understand that.
This has been fun. Thank you all for spending some time talking with me about decoding transcripts and profiles. And Darryl, as always, for making it fun. But maybe we'll have you come back.
Darryl Tiggle:
Please do.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. Thank you, Calvin, Candice, and Darryl. It's always fun to see you.
Darryl Tiggle:
Likewise.
Calvin Wise:
Pleasure. Good time.
Candice Mackey:
Thank you, Lee. Thank you, everyone.
Lee Coffin:
If you liked this episode of Admissions Beat, please leave us a rating or a comment wherever you download your podcasts. Your feedback helps other listeners discover the conversation. And it helps us make a better show for you. If you have a question you'd like us to answer in our season finale, please share it with us at admissionsbeat@Dartmouth.edu. That's admissionsbeat@dartmouth.edu. And I'll pose it to our panelists on that final episode. Admission Beat is a production from Dartmouth College, but it's not about admission to Dartmouth College. It's produced by Charlotte Albright with editorial guidance from Jack Steinberg and Marketing Strategy and Promotion from Kevin Ramos-Glue and Sara Morin. For now, I'm Lee Coffin. Thanks for listening.